Should Rule 5.2.5.3 be Updated?

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

they have more retention than an unlocked race holster....

and the same retention as my kydex holster.

 

I agree about the race holster, but all kydex holsters that I have seen or used are designed to grip the gun at the trigger guard, with a screw available to make it tighter or looser.  But regardless, I still think those soft holsters are fine for the starts we use without any strap.  We are always stationary on the start.  At most you have to worry about standing from seated or prone, in which case the race holster is much riskier.

[teros135]

9 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

I agree about the race holster, but all kydex holsters that I have seen or used are designed to grip the gun at the trigger guard, with a screw available to make it tighter or looser.  But regardless, I still think those soft holsters are fine for the starts we use without any strap.  We are always stationary on the start.  At most you have to worry about standing from seated or prone, in which case the race holster is much riskier.

 

Disagree.  The race holsters lock the gun in rather firmly, when locked, which is their job.

 

And we're forgetting that the purpose of a race holster's lock is to lock the gun when waiting to shoot; when it's time to shoot, the intent is for it to be unlocked and the gun grabbed at the beep.  That's what it was made for.  The retention holster was designed to retain the gun until the point the user wants to unholster it.  It's a straw man argument that the two holsters are somehow the same and somebody is being unfairly targeted.  

[JAFO]

43 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

Disagree.  The race holsters lock the gun in rather firmly, when locked, which is their job.

 

And we're forgetting that the purpose of a race holster's lock is to lock the gun when waiting to shoot; when it's time to shoot, the intent is for it to be unlocked and the gun grabbed at the beep.  That's what it was made for.  The retention holster was designed to retain the gun until the point the user wants to unholster it.  It's a straw man argument that the two holsters are somehow the same and somebody is being unfairly targeted.  

 

I'm sure race holsters lock in firmly and very well when locked.  My comments are made from my observations on how people are using them (I don't even have one).  To a man, everyone I RO who is using a race holster leaves it unlocked before the beep.  Especially those with the plastic rotating arm set between the holster and hangar (Ghost).  I used to see people lock the holsters with the small silver levers under the trigger guard area (Race Master), sweeping them off with their middle finger as they draw, but even those are being left unlocked on stationary start positions.  Because I'm seeing people using race holsters like that, the "strap must be applied" rule seems very silly and outdated.  Not saying you ignore it as long as it's in the book.

Edited August 28, 2018 by JAFO
Looked up the brand names

[louu]

13 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

I'm sure race holsters lock in firmly and very well when locked.  My comments are made from my observations on how people are using them (I don't even have one).  To a man, everyone I RO who is using a race holster leaves it unlocked before the beep.  Especially those with the plastic rotating arm set between the holster and hangar (sorry I'm not familiar with the brands).  I used to see people lock the holsters with the small silver levers under the trigger guard area, sweeping them off with their middle finger as they draw, but even those are being left unlocked on stationary start positions.  Because I'm seeing people using race holsters like that, the "strap must be applied" rule seems very silly and outdated.  Not saying you ignore it as long as it's in the book.

I'm waiting for more comments on this to. If the rule says all retaining devices must be in place prior to the start signal how is the lock lever different on the racemaster? 

 

Interested because I use the racemaster and I leave it unlocked for the draw just like everyone does.

[Nevadazielmeister]

I am not even going to vote since your poll is misleading and seeks to justify your position. 

 

The rule is real simple to me: Retaining Strap needs to be in place and there is nothing mentioning a lock. Then there's that pesky wording regarding the RO's discretion. 

 

So why the big deal? This thread is just like your other thread, asking for "clarification". 

[SlvrDragon50]

6 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

I am not even going to vote since your poll is misleading and seeks to justify your position. 

 

The rule is real simple to me: Retaining Strap needs to be in place and there is nothing mentioning a lock. Then there's that pesky wording regarding the RO's discretion. 

 

So why the big deal? This thread is just like your other thread, asking for "clarification". 

The point is what's the purpose of keeping the retention strap rule in place. People have mentioned that the rule was in place so people could train as they fight, but USPSA has strayed far from that. All the rule does it create barriers to entry. It's an outdated rule that has zero purpose in the current game.

[Nevadazielmeister]

6 hours ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

The point is what's the purpose of keeping the retention strap rule in place. People have mentioned that the rule was in place so people could train as they fight, but USPSA has strayed far from that. All the rule does it create barriers to entry. It's an outdated rule that has zero purpose in the current game.

 

Must we always change the rules? In cases of safety, I would completely agree. New technologies require new rules to better protect the shooters. But this? I disagree. No need for updating because there are still holsters with retention straps out there and to remove this safety portion of the ruling would invite possible accidents. To me, being involved in SCUBA diving and as an RSO, I see the benefit to this measure. 

[waktasz]

Show me an example of a holster that would be fine with a strap but horribly dangerous without it

[SlvrDragon50]

2 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

Must we always change the rules? In cases of safety, I would completely agree. New technologies require new rules to better protect the shooters. But this? I disagree. No need for updating because there are still holsters with retention straps out there and to remove this safety portion of the ruling would invite possible accidents. To me, being involved in SCUBA diving and as an RSO, I see the benefit to this measure. 

This really isn't comparable to diving. You have seen other people here comment that their kydex holsters have zero retention. You can't tell me that's going to be any safer than a 3 gun holster with the hood down. If anything, require the strap to be in place only while not making ready and waiting for your turn. When was the last time you saw a gun fall out of a holster? If someone is running any distance before drawing their gun, they're doing it wrong.

[Akkid17]

I think the 0 retention is misleading on hooded holster when the hood is down. The retention may be minimal but there is friction retention on all  kydex holsters which is why standard  kydex holsters without a hood or lock of any sort are considered level 1 retention. And that’s what a hooded holster becomes when the hood is not in the locked position 

[ATLDave]

I'm not sure that having a retention device applied while waiting for the buzzer is actually providing any additional safety benefit. 

[ATLDave]

1 minute ago, Akkid17 said:

I think the 0 retention is misleading on hooded holster when the hood is down. The retention may be minimal but there is friction retention on all  kydex holsters which is why standard  kydex holsters without a hood or lock of any sort are considered level 1 retention. And that’s what a hooded holster becomes when the hood is not in the locked position 

Similarly, I think a lot of people who have never messed with race holsters don't understand the degree to which many of them still retain a gun amazingly well without the lock on... until force is applied along just the right vector to get the mechanism to release.

 

Lots of people coming from kydex gun-buckets have a hard time adjusting to, say, a DAA Race Master because it will actually hold on to the gun very strongly unless your draw stroke is in-line with the channel the locking block rides in.  You can hammer on the butt of the gun all day and (so long as it was properly put into the holster) the gun will not come out even if the external safety-lock has been taken off.  

[Nevadazielmeister]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

Show me an example of a holster that would be fine with a strap but horribly dangerous without it

 

Cloth holsters, older style Serpa holsters, etc. The concern is shooters walking around without proper retention.

 

33 minutes ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

This really isn't comparable to diving. You have seen other people here comment that their kydex holsters have zero retention. You can't tell me that's going to be any safer than a 3 gun holster with the hood down. If anything, require the strap to be in place only while not making ready and waiting for your turn. When was the last time you saw a gun fall out of a holster? If someone is running any distance before drawing their gun, they're doing it wrong.

 

Very comparable to diving since diving as an organization has set rules in place to protect the dive master (me) or the club (the Range Officer) while putting on a match. If a rule is violated and someone is injured, then the entire club is exposed to negligence liability. Very applicable. 

 

The last time I saw a gun fall out was a friend in a 3Gun match in which he was running with his holstered firearm and half way through the run, the firearm fell out. His day/match was done. It was a very sad video. It happens more than you think and I would hate to think about a falling firearm loaded and ready to go near myself or others. 

 

19 minutes ago, Akkid17 said:

I think the 0 retention is misleading on hooded holster when the hood is down. The retention may be minimal but there is friction retention on all  kydex holsters which is why standard  kydex holsters without a hood or lock of any sort are considered level 1 retention. And that’s what a hooded holster becomes when the hood is not in the locked position 

 

18 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

I'm not sure that having a retention device applied while waiting for the buzzer is actually providing any additional safety benefit. 

 

My comment goes to what happens AFTER the stage is complete. That strap would provide added safety to all other shooters while walking from stage to stage, which is the spirit and intent of the rule I imagine. 

 

15 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

Similarly, I think a lot of people who have never messed with race holsters don't understand the degree to which many of them still retain a gun amazingly well without the lock on... until force is applied along just the right vector to get the mechanism to release.

 

Lots of people coming from kydex gun-buckets have a hard time adjusting to, say, a DAA Race Master because it will actually hold on to the gun very strongly unless your draw stroke is in-line with the channel the locking block rides in.  You can hammer on the butt of the gun all day and (so long as it was properly put into the holster) the gun will not come out even if the external safety-lock has been taken off.  

 

I am new to race holsters but so far I can agree with you. They don't simply come out, but then again, we are talking about holsters with retention straps, right?

Edited August 29, 2018 by Nevadazielmeister

[SlvrDragon50]

5 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

Cloth holsters, older style Serpa holsters, etc. The concern is shooters walking around without proper retention.

 

 

Ver comparable to diving since diving as an organization has set rules in place to protect the dive master (me) or the club (the Range Officer) while putting on a match. If a rule is violated and someone is injured, then the entire club is exposed to negligence liability. Very applicable. 

 

The last time I saw a gun fall out was a friend in a 3Gun match in which he was running with his holster firearm and half way through the run, the firearm fell out. His day/match was done. It was a very sad video. It happens more than you think and I would hate to think about a falling firearm loaded and ready to go near myself or others. 

 

 

 

My comment goes to what happens AFTER the stage is complete. That strap would provide added safety to all other shooters while walking from stage to stage, which is the spirit and intent of the rule I imagine. 

 

 

I am new to race holsters but so far I can agree with you. They don't simply come out, but then again, we are talking about holsters with retention straps, right?

Yes, but we are not talking 3 gun. We are talking USPSA. I don't think you're fully familiar with the background of this discussion based on the comments you made.

 

The rule was put into place back when USPSA was used to practice as they fought (drawing from retention). USPSA is no longer like that, and the rule is clearly outdated with race holsters and kydex holster with minimal retention. We are not talking about walking around with the gun while waiting for your turn. We are talking about having to put on straps when you're about to get beeped to go. 

 

If the rule is changed to applying only while waiting, sure, go ahead as I previously mentioned.

 

The diving argument really doesn't apply because we are not talking about rules in general but a specific outdated rule. It would be akin to requiring every single diver to wear a snorkel when most divers are not doing that anymore.

Edited August 29, 2018 by SlvrDragon50

[Nevadazielmeister]

9 minutes ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

Yes, but we are not talking 3 gun. We are talking USPSA. I don't think you're fully familiar with the background of this discussion based on the comments you made.

 

The rule was put into place back when USPSA was used to practice as they fought (drawing from retention). USPSA is no longer like that, and the rule is clearly outdated with race holsters and kydex holster with minimal retention. We are not talking about walking around with the gun while waiting for your turn. We are talking about having to put on straps when you're about to get beeped to go. 

 

If the rule is changed to applying only while waiting, sure, go ahead as I previously mentioned.

 

The diving argument really doesn't apply because we are not talking about rules in general but a specific outdated rule. It would be akin to requiring every single diver to wear a snorkel when most divers are not doing that anymore.

 

So what about the new shooter or shooter who still uses a retention strap? Is that shooter now not allowed to compete? It would appear that if this rule is updated, we do not allow for the new shooter's entrance into the sport. Yes, I rarely see any of these older holsters, but they are still out there. 

[SlvrDragon50]

3 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

So what about the new shooter or shooter who still uses a retention strap? Is that shooter now not allowed to compete? It would appear that if this rule is updated, we do not allow for the new shooter's entrance into the sport. Yes, I rarely see any of these older holsters, but they are still out there. 

What, this is exactly addressing that. This allows people with retention straps to NOT use them when they compete. It allows for more entrance into the sport as people won't feel hampered by the need to buy equipment specific to USPSA. 3 gunners can freely use their hooded holsters and not feel obligated to buy another holster just to compete in USPSA.

[ATLDave]

1 hour ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

My comment goes to what happens AFTER the stage is complete. That strap would provide added safety to all other shooters while walking from stage to stage, which is the spirit and intent of the rule I imagine. 

 

No, the rule addresses the condition after make ready while waiting for the beep.  If it were limited to time walking around and not being the shooter, I think almost nobody would have a beef with that.  Nor, for that matter, with some requirement about any safety-locks being applied to race holsters.

[StealthyBlagga]

19 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

I am not even going to vote since your poll is misleading and seeks to justify your position. 

 

The rule is real simple to me: Retaining Strap needs to be in place and there is nothing mentioning a lock. Then there's that pesky wording regarding the RO's discretion. 

 

So why the big deal? This thread is just like your other thread, asking for "clarification". 

 

I don't think my poll is misleading, nor do I have any position I am trying to justify. The goal of this thread is simple to stimulate debate and gauge sentiment within our community - indeed, I hope all my posts do this (or at least make people smile). I am not afraid to challenge people's assertions though... if someone makes a statement unsupported by evidence, I'll challenge that.

 

With respect, it is not helpful when folks get angry or defensive, or shout down those with differing views. The Enos forum is one of the few venues where rules questions can be intelligently debated, and the reason is because of strict conduct rules vigorously enforced. I try to pause before I post something, and like to think most other folks here do likewise.

 

[Nevadazielmeister]

3 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

I don't think my poll is misleading, nor do I have any position I am trying to justify.

Your poll IS misleading based on the only choice you don't like when you word such as "It is fine the way it is and I am comfortable with the resultant inequity". This is a misleading poll and you are looking to get the result YOU want. I could care less frankly and simply asked what is the big deal. 

 

And thanks for the condescending remarks. I know how to debate and I understand the idea of discourse. No need to describe how amazing you are. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Nevadazielmeister

[Akkid17]

So, back on track here, what’s the intent of the rule? I have seen a couple posts saying it was for people to be more realistic in their use of gear to be more ‘practical’ in gear use and selection. So was the intent to ensure all individuals that decided to use a level2 or higher retention holster had to use any/all  retention features on the holster while competing? Or was it to ensure gear/guns couldn’t inadvertently fall out of a pouch or holster while competing? I’d say the intent is what needs to be determined to then ensure the rule is still legitamate 

[Gary Stevens]

This rule has been around for decades. I believe it originated on the thinking that you chose a holster with these devices (straps, etc.) so you should use them. 

 

With that that being said, some adjustments in the rule is warranted.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Gary Stevens

[bishop414]

3 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

This rule has been around for decades. I believe it originated on the thinking that you chose a holster with these devices (straps, etc.) so you should use them. 

 

With that hat being said, some adjustments in the rule is warranted.

 

+1 Agree.

[caspian guy]

3 hours ago, Gary Stevens said:

This rule has been around for decades. I believe it originated on the thinking that you chose a holster with these devices (straps, etc.) so you should use them. 

 

With that hat being said, some adjustments in the rule is warranted.

As usual I agree with Gary

[rishii]

that rule goes back to days of the holster test, which tested the ability of your holster to retain the gun

it included jumping over a 18” vertical   Obstacle, jumping up and rotating 360 degrees on a vertical axis and landing,  and might have included a360  degree forward roll, and if you used a retaining strap during the holster test it had to be used for the match.

If I did any of that now, I’d hurt myself

[StealthyBlagga]

5 hours ago, rishii said:

...If I did any of that now, I’d hurt myself

 

LOL - if we made it mandatory, that would certainly cure the problem with over-subscribed matches