Need help, C&S hammer kit sucks, what's wrong?

[DagoRed]

All right guys, this is a combo "did I miss something obvious?"/vent (because I'm frickin pissed). Short version is I just finished installing a trigger kit advertised as 3lb and I'm at 3lb 10oz average. Unless I missed something I got completely ripped off and I, sending this shit back. 200$ to take my gun down less than a pound?!

Background, I have a Springfield Trophy Match, custom shop trigger job that I paid for was supposed to be 4lbs. It was crisp as glass but I never got better than about 4lb 6oz on my gauge. They told me I think a couple hundred in parts to get better (very ironic that a target pistol has factory parts that the factory says can't go lower than 4)

So after shooting it like that a while and putting a trigger kit in my xdm to take it to 2lb15oz I decided to do something about it

I ordered up the cylinder amd slide Ultra Light Speed II 3lb kit from brownells, 180$, C&S strut $17, infinity short flat trigger (I have a short trigger on my factory stock rock island and like the shorter length), and a Harrison thumb safety because I find the factory one uncomfortable and a little high.

So nothing at all touched on the 5 piece kit. I spent hours (because the parts are so damn pricey) fitting the trigger and the safety. All done everything fits and works and the trigger pull is right where my factory trigger is on my rock island. Seriously, 200$ to get to 3lb, 10oz?! I'm considering not only semding the parts back but also selling the damn gun and going back to the RI. For more than double the cost this things only advantage is cosmetics

Did I miss something? Do something wrong? And to further pour gas on the fire, the safety is a complete waste now because it's fit to this kit and won't fit the factory parts (I know because he factory safety would have had to be stoned to fit this kit too, I tested it. I decided if I was doing this I wouldn't bother re-using any of the original parts so I can carry them all w me for backup)

Advise? Just call brownells and try to recoup as much of my money as I can? Consider the $80 safety a lesson learned?

Red

[dansedgli]

Bent the sear spring yet?

https://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=12535/GunTechdetail/2___lb__Trigger_Pull

Edited August 11, 2016 by dansedgli

[DagoRed]

I haven't. I figured if it says 3lbs I shouldn't have to be playing w the sear spring. Otherwise I'll just play w the spring that was already in it. Much cheaper to replace that if I mess it up. I actually almost went that route and was going to use that guide. Was trying to save buying the jig. Hindsight. Maybe that's the route I'll go now

Red

[dthomas1003]

+1 on the sear spring. That also needs tuned to get you down to 3lbs.

Edited August 11, 2016 by dthomas1003

[BeerBaron]

To be honest I think it's silly for companies to market triggers as 3lb or 3.5lb or whatever.

For one thing part of the trigger pull weight comes from the pressure of left and middle legs of the sear spring. both of those have to have a certain amount of tension on them for the gun to function reliably. I would say generally at least 1lb of trigger pull is there and on most guns it'd be 1.5+ and on factory 1911's more like 2lb+.

The next problem is part of the 'weight' comes from having to lift the sear off the hammer hooks. the heavier the hammer spring is the harder this task is (more force on the sear from the hammer). so that's a factor too.

The final one is pin hole placement. to get a really nice crisp, light action you need to use the 2 sided pins on the actual gun to test fit the hammer and sear to determine how they interface in that particular gun. hammer and sear pin holes are slightly different from manufacturer to manufacturer and sometimes even from batch to batch when talking 1911 frames.

companies building drop in kits have to take into account this variance in frames and potential 'tolerance stacking' so they make a set of parts somewhere in the middle of the ideal 'range' of measurements to ensure it'll at least function in the widest range of guns.

C&S is known as producing very good ignition parts.

If the trigger breaks nice and clean with no creep then I'd suggest you stick with it.

put in a 17 or 15lb hammer spring.

adjust (ie bend) the tension on the left leg of the sear spring. the centre leg also supplies some pressure to the trigger pull so you may have to bend that one too. but be careful. go too far can cause problems like hammer follow, burst fire or even full auto...

[jcc7x7]

+1 on beer baron

All 1911 type trigger work requires adjustment of the sear spring.

Center leg controls disco/ trigger return.14-16 ozs is a good place to start with that. Then adjust left leg to preferred wgt.

Summary of your question, yes you did miss something!

But now you have some more knowledge.

Also Brownells has several videos and articles on adjusting triggers

[PatJones]

Find a gunsmith.....

[zzt]

The C&S kit comes with an 18lb mainspring. Did you use it? Did you replace the ILS parts in the MSH with standard? C&S says you may have to adjust the sear spring to get the advertised weight.

[DagoRed]

Thanks guys. I understand my problem. I tried to take a shortcut using the kit. In my defense it was Springfield custom that said they'd have to replace parts to get the trigger lighter. If it takes adjustment anyways I should have started w the parts I had. I pulled all the new parts, replaced the old. One round of tweaking the sear and disconnect legs (my trigger gauge is different from the one used in the article and I can't get it on there so I just gently tweaked them) combined w an 18lb mainspring took the factory parts to 3lb 3.9oz.

I'll play more tonight. I have a 17lb mainspring I could try too.

I verified that the new safety won't work w the old parts, now that it's been fit I get hammer follow w the other pieces. So save the 80$ safety by keeping the $200 worth of cylinder and slide parts or mitigate my loss

I have 5 1911's so it's worth getting good at this.

I'm sorted out now gents and appreciate the help

Red

Edited August 11, 2016 by DagoRed

[TISCHLJ]

C&S stuff is top notch. Well made and long lasting. Check out the Brazos website for tech tips on how to tweeK your components for proper, safe operation. I have found the C&S TIN pins are an enhancement to what is already a great kit. Read up...and you will have that trigger pull just like you want it.

[ltdmstr]

To be honest I think it's silly for companies to market triggers as 3lb or 3.5lb or whatever.

For one thing part of the trigger pull weight comes from the pressure of left and middle legs of the sear spring. both of those have to have a certain amount of tension on them for the gun to function reliably. I would say generally at least 1lb of trigger pull is there and on most guns it'd be 1.5+ and on factory 1911's more like 2lb+.

The next problem is part of the 'weight' comes from having to lift the sear off the hammer hooks. the heavier the hammer spring is the harder this task is (more force on the sear from the hammer). so that's a factor too.

The final one is pin hole placement. to get a really nice crisp, light action you need to use the 2 sided pins on the actual gun to test fit the hammer and sear to determine how they interface in that particular gun. hammer and sear pin holes are slightly different from manufacturer to manufacturer and sometimes even from batch to batch when talking 1911 frames.

companies building drop in kits have to take into account this variance in frames and potential 'tolerance stacking' so they make a set of parts somewhere in the middle of the ideal 'range' of measurements to ensure it'll at least function in the widest range of guns.

C&S is known as producing very good ignition parts.

If the trigger breaks nice and clean with no creep then I'd suggest you stick with it.

put in a 17 or 15lb hammer spring.

adjust (ie bend) the tension on the left leg of the sear spring. the centre leg also supplies some pressure to the trigger pull so you may have to bend that one too. but be careful. go too far can cause problems like hammer follow, burst fire or even full auto...

Light ms = mushy trigger. The correct way to get a good, light, crisp, reliable trigger is to get the hammer and sear cut correctly and polish all the contact surfaces. I have guns with 23# ms and under 2# pull with NRA weights. They break clean like glass.

[magpulled]

The C&S kit comes with an 18lb mainspring. Did you use it? Did you replace the ILS parts in the MSH with standard? C&S says you may have to adjust the sear spring to get the advertised weight.

+ 1 on the ils parts.

I had to replace the msh and the strut to get it just right.

[pjb45]

Big +1 on Bill's stuff. Top notch. Fine tuning is required regardless.

I have had a friend get my C&S down below 3lb easily.

Edited August 12, 2016 by pjb45

[earplug]

I bought a older used Springfield that had a drop in C&S kit. Didn't feel right to me. the sear was binding inside the frame. I had to do some polishing. Recheck your hammer and sear pins for free motion.

[fastluck13]

You may be able to peen the safety to get it to work if it is undersized after you fit it.

[ParaGunner]

I've been running a C&s ultra lite kit for 6 years at a 2.25lbs pull weight with 0 problems. Yes, you have to adjust sear spring.

[DagoRed]

All right, so I put the kit back in the gun. I ditched the ILS a long time ago, and added a Dawson ice MSH and magwell too

i was gonna send it back, the kit, and have a buddy weld up the safety so I could refit. However, I decided give this a run and tweak it, plus with all the old parts in the original safety wasn't passing 100% safety checks. I'm guessing not enough weight on the sear leg? 

 

Anyways, 3lb 15oz, everything fits and all safety tests pass. I could maybe go a little lighter but I have a match tomorrow and am gonna run it like this. There's an almost imperceptible creep in it but I don't think it's a problem will know tomorrow. 

 

Thanks guys fir for all the advise. Maybe it's time to find out what's wrong w my Kimber trigger. 

Red

[pskys2]

Teach a man to fish... get a good quality stoning set, a video or manual on 1911 trigger work and learn to do it yourself.  The only reason to pay for a trigger kit is to get a good sear and a lightened hammer.  The rest comes from cutting the sear/trigger and adjusting springs.  It's not hard to do a 2 1/2 lb job that is crisp.  Keeping it crisp is the issue over time and to do so you need to be able to touch up the engagement surfaces.  If this is for competition go for it, if self defense your original 4 lb crisp is what you need.

[kimberacp]

I agree with pskys2 and the above statement.

[Jimk60]

Check out this article from Brownell's Bench Talk. Go to the part where they talk about sear spring prep, and how to adjust the spring to improve trigger pull weight.

This not only worked on my Bullseye gun to bring it down to a consistent 3.5 lbs, but also 2 different 1911-22's, which are also now set at 3.5 lbs.

Benck Talk 2.5 lb trigger

[robertg5322]

Got these kits in 4 guns. All required a bit of tweaking to get rid of the last little bit of creep and get the release weight where I wanted it. No big deal, everyone has a different definition of a great trigger. Mine: 3.0-3.5 lbs, no creep no overtravel and a noticeable increase where the pre-travel turns into sear release point. I tried 2.0 lb triggers, but I'm so used to the 3.0-3.5 that my trigger prep during transitions was causing ADs (ND!!!) and the resulting DQs. So I went back to what works for me. 

 

 

[e4effort]

I've had nothing but success with C&S parts. I've helped a friend put in a drop-in kit without any prep and the pull came out to be the advertised weight after tuning the sear spring a bit. Gutted the gun again, stoned some edges, polished some surfaces, and reassembled the pistol for the same weight but a much smoother pull and reset.

+1 to C&S as well as Extreme Engineering.

[DagoRed]

Can a one tell me what trigger pull gauge will work for the method described in the bench talk article? My Lyman digital the end is too far to get in between the legs and the part number in the article is not coming up. 

 

I I have three more guns that need trigger improvement. (Just picked up a Springfield 1911 in 9mm that supposedly had a 3lb pull done by some known smith here in CA but I think the guy I bought it from got ripped. I gauged it at 5lbs.)

Red

[BeerBaron]

2 hours ago, DagoRed said:

Can a one tell me what trigger pull gauge will work for the method described in the bench talk article? My Lyman digital the end is too far to get in between the legs and the part number in the article is not coming up. 

 

I I have three more guns that need trigger improvement. (Just picked up a Springfield 1911 in 9mm that supposedly had a 3lb pull done by some known smith here in CA but I think the guy I bought it from got ripped. I gauged it at 5lbs.)

Red

you don't put the gauge on the leaf spring. you still put it on the trigger. the test he's talking about is just moving the trigger slightly to see what the first stage of pull weight is.

the way the spring works the trigger bar moving back should engage the middle finger of the spring first. just move it enough to move that spring (need to have the beavertail off to do this so you can see it). you then pull a bit further which should engage both legs and that is the 'combined' measurement of left finger and center finger. 

[CHA-LEE]

If you can't figure out basic leaf spring adjustments to tune the felt trigger pull weight then you mind will explode when trying to understand first & second surface cut angels of the sear.

Drop in trigger kits will never produce the same results as a precision tuned trigger job. If you can't figure it out on your own, take it to a competent 1911/2011 gunsmith who can get the job done the way you want it.