Is it fair to require USPSA shooters to go prone?

[Corey]

Yes it should be presented occasionally. Its a physical sport. I don't want to see it on every stage but its a skill i think should be tested from time to time. I like the options of offering a 'non-prone' solution that might add a little time to the stage, but if that's your choice, so be it. Most of the kneeling/prone I've seen has always been at the end of the stage which I can understand for shooters who may not be super agile anymore. Just like ULSC, they done have to worry about getting up and being potentially unsafe while still on the clock to go shoot more stuff.

[warpspeed]

In a word - Yes.

[Sarge]

for my part,i find hard to shoot in prone position with my lower back problems. people with a limitation are at a disadvantage in this case. i wouldn't go as far as saying it's unfair, but sure enough it doesn't take physical limitations in consideration. i know some guys who shoot all A,s and regularly finish top 3 all the time but when it comes to a stage with a prone position, they're screwed....since it's only a game, i wonder why i would risk getting my lower back locked for weeks with the pain associated for a stage where shooting prone is required. then i volontarily screw up the whole stage because of that, problem solved for me. however, this topic has been brought up by the older shooters among us with limitation, and it's still a rage between these lines.... most of the time it's peoples with no physical limitations who designs the stages .

these are excellent points. Just like we have a special olympics and a senior olympics for handicapped and elderly people, we also have a version of USPSA for the handicapped and elderly. Guess what it's called....

Cowboy Action Shooting?

IDPA

[motosapiens]

these are excellent points. Just like we have a special olympics and a senior olympics for handicapped and elderly people, we also have a version of USPSA for the handicapped and elderly. Guess what it's called....

Cowboy Action Shooting?

IDPA

I can't believe you went there!

[ktm300]

Go shoot some IPSC and you will wish for the USPSA prone stages. Those guys are brutal.

I am in my late 50's and I don't mind whatever they throw at me as long as it can be done safely.

[jrswanson1]

for my part,i find hard to shoot in prone position with my lower back problems. people with a limitation are at a disadvantage in this case. i wouldn't go as far as saying it's unfair, but sure enough it doesn't take physical limitations in consideration. i know some guys who shoot all A,s and regularly finish top 3 all the time but when it comes to a stage with a prone position, they're screwed....since it's only a game, i wonder why i would risk getting my lower back locked for weeks with the pain associated for a stage where shooting prone is required. then i volontarily screw up the whole stage because of that, problem solved for me. however, this topic has been brought up by the older shooters among us with limitation, and it's still a rage between these lines.... most of the time it's peoples with no physical limitations who designs the stages .

these are excellent points. Just like we have a special olympics and a senior olympics for handicapped and elderly people, we also have a version of USPSA for the handicapped and elderly. Guess what it's called....

Cowboy Action Shooting?

IDPA

At the last IDPA match I went to, one of the stages involved untangling yourself from a fallen over bicycle and shooting 8 targets. That's a little more strenuous than shooting prone I have yet to see a newer SASS stage that involved anything more strenuous than a brisk stroll to another firearm. Although some of the younger guys (under 55) would run.

[pete627]

I don't remember running into a stage yet where prone wasn't the "last" position (or only position) ... but ...

I went to a match with a friend one time and when he noticed the "prone" stage he started complaining as loudly ... declaring he was going to go home ... stomping around ... etc ... etc .... This was a stage where you "made ready" in the prone position and finished the stage in the prone position. I asked him to hold on until we could speak to the MD.

When we spoke to the MD he continued to act enraged and declared it was impossible for him to go prone ... no way ... The MD calmly asked him ... "what?? don't you ever go to bed or lie down to sleep??" ... My friend said "of course" he could lie down ... just couldn't get up very fast. The MD said ... "you just get down there ... and we will worry about getting you up" ...

After shooting the stage ... clearing his gun and placing it "safe" on the provided pad he was promptly whipped into an upright position when about 4 squad members got a hold of his arms and belt.

I have never heard another peep out of him about prone stages.

[bradsteimel]

I read the title of this thread and audibly face palmed.

For people that literally can't get into a prone position, supine is perfectly usable, effective, and easy to get into. I actually like to shoot supine more than prone in general.

Hey, there's a thought. Design a stage where the only way to engage a target is supine

[bradsteimel]

for my part,i find hard to shoot in prone position with my lower back problems. people with a limitation are at a disadvantage in this case. i wouldn't go as far as saying it's unfair, but sure enough it doesn't take physical limitations in consideration. i know some guys who shoot all A,s and regularly finish top 3 all the time but when it comes to a stage with a prone position, they're screwed....since it's only a game, i wonder why i would risk getting my lower back locked for weeks with the pain associated for a stage where shooting prone is required. then i volontarily screw up the whole stage because of that, problem solved for me. however, this topic has been brought up by the older shooters among us with limitation, and it's still a rage between these lines.... most of the time it's peoples with no physical limitations who designs the stages .

these are excellent points. Just like we have a special olympics and a senior olympics for handicapped and elderly people, we also have a version of USPSA for the handicapped and elderly. Guess what it's called....

Cowboy Action Shooting?

IDPA

But, hey, those folks force people into really weird starting positions. I've seen stages where you had to start curled up inside a car's trunk. I think i'd rather shoot from prone. Hilarious!

[Reshoot]

I never complain about low ports, or prone. It is just a part of the game. I can take some procedurals and move on.

[rowdyb]

Everything isn't for everybody. I'm 5'7" and if I wanted to run the high hurdles that'd be on me and I shouldn't complain they are too high. I've had over ten surgeries completely through my abdominal wall and can't really twist to the right, and yet I still shoot targets and arrays to the right OK.

If you can't reasonably do it, you can't. But just be prepared to accept the penalty.

So yes, have prone every stage if you like. Put the lower edge of a port at 5'10" eye level and I'll just have to run right on by. It is what it is.....

[mccurdy53]

We had a match just this past weekend that required kneeling and prone. I mention that because I recently had knee surgery and had difficulty in doing that. Yes, as you stated it took time. It would have been better for me if I had knee pads. My fault and no one elses fault. I plan to start packing knee pads which would have sped things up a hair as I'd have had to favor my knee a bit less.

I have no problem with prone shooting. Let me rephrase that. I'm no longer as spry or as fast as I was, today as a Senior shooter, than I was even 20 years ago. I'm one of those people you refer to as taking a bit more time to get down and then back up, knee or no knee issues. I have no problem with the requirement. Why? Well, because everything I do today, as compared to 20 years ago is done slower. I don't run as fast, and my eyes don't focus as fast. If I didn't want to do any of those things I'd be shooting Bullseye competition and not ask to have Action Pistol turned into a Bullseye match. After all, it IS called Action Pistol and not Sedentary Pistol. Prone is just another form of action.

Flex', you wouldn't know where that's found in the rules, would you? I know I've seen it but try to find it when it's needed.

10.2.10

[BrianKr]

Got it! Thanks! :-)

I hope I never need to use it, but I also didn't see this latest knee surgery being needed either. I much prefer to just suck it up and get it done.

Edited May 17, 2016 by BrianKr

[BeerBaron]

yes there are always things that some people can do better than others. the thing that keeps USPSA/IPSC pretty fair is VARIETY. Not everyone can run as fast as others. This is not a massive problem until every stage becomes a running race. as it is generally there's a mix of run+gun and then more technical/static stages. That means the tubby guy who can shoot like a demon can still win the odd match if he plays to his strengths.

Prone is fine. I don't want it every stage (got imagine all the NRA/bianchi cup shooters we'd have face planting themselves all over the place!) but in a 12 stage match I'd like to see maybe 1 prone position. maybe 1 WHO and 1 SHO course is good too.

One of the smartest AND fairest ways i've seen to do prone was at a recent match.

it was a 270 degree range. start positoin was anywhere in the shooting area. you had a number of doors to open and ports to shoot through in a semi circle. The main 2 options where start on the left and work your way to the right or do the reverse. Now the final right most position had 4 targets that could be engaged through say a 20inch high port that was was 5 feet wide. That port was right next to the 2nd to last shooting position (a door), so after the door, drop prone, or kneel and bend/whatever and shoot those 8 shots. OR you could go further right and some to the rear within the shooting bay and see them from the far right of the shooting area. it was about 4 steps. but now you can see and engage them standing. freestyle. It was very interesting. Take 4 more steps and shoot standing, but you've spent a little time AND now the targets are 10 yards away not 4 yards.

In the end it worked out very close either way. So those who didn't want to go prone could avoid it with possibly a small penalty in time. Great stage design gives OPTIONS!

There is nothing in ipsc shooting that I enjoy more than a stage that has more than one VIABLE way to shoot the stage. Many stages have a 'good' plan and some other 'ok' plans but it's rare when a stage has 2 (or more?) plans that are both viable.

Edited May 17, 2016 by BeerBaron

[perttime]

I just shoot badly in prone... I try to get in an angled position, with the strong side shoulder down. At least that lets me keep my arms straight enough to see the sights.

Any tips?

[ChuckS]

Here is a optional low port from the 2014 nationals at SGU. Look at the stage that begins about 1:40. Stop the video at 1:52. You will see a low port (caution tape border) on the left rear wall and a set of stairs on the right. You could get the final 4 targets from either the low port or run up the stairs and shoot them from above.

This is the flexible Nils:

[Jim Watson]

I shoot mostly, though not entirely, the much ridiculed IDPA, but will still take the risk of commenting.

To accommodate the elderly and infirm, IDPA added a requirement that a "low cover" (prone or kneeling) firing position be the last in the stage so that getting up would not be on the clock. They also incorporated the Penalty in Lieu of Performance clause from USPSA.

My last match, there were two stages ending in low cover. I managed one kneeling OK but the other was even more awkward and just plain hurt to kneel even on the walkthrough without gun in hand. Two shooters shot standing around the barrelcade and took the Procedural; I went prone. It took a little longer to shoot but not three seconds longer. Getting up was the trick and I am glad it was not on the clock.

The USPSA contingent at the small local club has not had that low a port that I have seen. Nor has the little IPSC shoot at a regional indoor range.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Jim Watson

[geezer-lock]

I have been around a while and seen a lot, but don't recall EVER seeing a USPSA instruction to "go prone (or supine)". In freestyle stages there are always options, that is what the game is about. At 72 I can still do a rollover prone fairly quickly, the undo is a dog of a different gender.

David C

FY5333

[bradsteimel]

Here is a optional low port from the 2014 nationals at SGU. Look at the stage that begins about 1:40. Stop the video at 1:52. You will see a low port (caution tape border) on the left rear wall and a set of stairs on the right. You could get the final 4 targets from either the low port or run up the stairs and shoot them from above.

This is the flexible Nils:

Now that's impressive!

Not sure if it would be faster to get up from that position or from prone (if it were needed)...

[MacLethal]

The only thing I could see them doing is allowing the seniors and super seniors to maybe kneel instead? Idk..

[Bkreutz]

What I do (two artificial hips and one artificial shoulder) is when there are shooting positions that I can't do (not that I don't want to, just that I can't). I speak with the RM and he makes the decision about procedurals, typically it is one procedural for not getting into the shooting position. I had a standard stage a few weeks back on a par time stand and shoot, kneel and shoot, and prone and shoot. I took the procedurals (one for each shooting position) but after thinking about how it affected my score I might have been better not to take the procedurals and just let the par time expire as I attempted to get into the position. The only way I could have done the prone would have been to fall on my face, and then the rest of the shooters would have to put me on a stretcher and take me to the doctor. I compete for fun, I don't try to do anything that I know will be harmful to my tired old body. If you can't go prone (or kneel) take the procedural and continue on.

[BrianKr]

I have been around a while and seen a lot, but don't recall EVER seeing a USPSA instruction to "go prone (or supine)". In freestyle stages there are always options, that is what the game is about. At 72 I can still do a rollover prone fairly quickly, the undo is a dog of a different gender.

David C

FY5333

We had a classifier this past match that required both kneeling and prone or supine. BTW, the prone shooting was the last part of the stage.

[Flatland Shooter]

I've had knee surgery and back surgery.

On a good day, I can go prone without problems. Getting up will be slow but I can do it.

But on bad days, going prone will result in a lot more pain than any stage or any match is worth. As long as the MD and course of fire has an option (with some penalty of course) where I do not need to go prone, I'm good.

The other less desirable option will be for me to "zero" the stage.

[TonytheTiger]

It's only fair to force a competitor to go prone if he/she has the option to do so in whichever gender of bathroom as he/she is identifying as that day.

[perttime]

... don't recall EVER seeing a USPSA instruction to "go prone (or supine)". In freestyle stages there are always options, ..

It is quite possible to design a stage so that you have to shoot something through a very low port.