Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[gng4life]

Why on earth would you want to allow people to walk around with rifles slung across their chest?

How else would you carry your rifle on a multigun stage that has you starting with pistol?

You stage it at the pickup location...

[wgj3]

Not even an appropriate topic in the PCC conversation. Not lugging rifles around during the entire match, period. No need for multiple guns at one time at a USPSA match, thus no need for slung guns to be managed appropriately.

Edited January 23, 2016 by wgj3

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Maybe the proponents of PCC can just be drowned with an endless series of objections.

Or perhaps we could have a respectful debate about making a significant change to USPSA handgun shooting rules.

But hey if you want to rush to be a victim, that's your call.

[Cherryriver]

So we had our annual club match/program directors' meeting this morning, and the club's competition director (who's a two-division USPSA pistol master and also a big 3-gun guy) wanted to get the PCC thing discussed.
I outlined my position as before, beginning most of all with the fact that we have no rulebook and don't know what the rules and protocols will be with any certainty.
I was joined by one of the two assistant USPSA MDs, and he's a USPSA CRO who's worked just about every National around- no slouch in match production. He also took a generally negative view: if you want to shoot long guns, go to a long gun match (of which we have plenty).

My esteemed colleague from our exceptionally busy Steel Plates program offered a fairly complete analysis in which he said his experience with having long guns in his steel matches suggests that we won't have too much trouble with the addition of long guns. But he also pointed out that that was working from the perspective of stationary, from-a-box shooting and that large field courses could present a different outcome.
His assistant, on the other hand, took considerable umbrage with me over suggesting long guns might slow the match down. I was a little surprised: this fellow pretty much never shoots USPSA, staying in Steel (at which he often wins overall) and IDPA.
The comp director suggested (as also noted above) that it might interest more outside non-competitors and cause them to take up action shooting. Our response was that our USPSA program, currently limited to five bays (more a-building!) is pretty well jammed up during the fair months and we frankly don't want any more than the 65-70 we're getting. That point was taken by all. The Steel program runs to 100+ shooters and it's a long day, indeed.
(The multigun program is likewise heavily patronized. Getting out by dark is sometimes an issue.)

Then there was another set of voices: I want to go shoot a handgun match, so that's why I go to a handgun match. I don't want to go to a rifle match, and rifle shooters should go to rifle matches. I get that, too.

I formerly ran the multigun matches there, long ago, both 3-gun, 2-gun, and specialty matches like Practical Rifle and Practical Shotgun and I got away from it because it's slow-paced (to me) and way too much work.

I concluded that we will wait to see the rulebook and go from there. I did not take a yay or nay position, but that I'd keep an open mind.
But I did say I'd authorize and help set up a USPSA PCC Division-only match on a separate date if we decided it needed some experimentation first.

[Beastly]

Maybe the proponents of PCC can just be drowned with an endless series of objections.

Or perhaps we could have a respectful debate about making a significant change to USPSA handgun shooting rules.

But hey if you want to rush to be a victim, that's your call.

That was as respectful a response as I was able to muster after reading your posts. Respectful also includes not ignoring obvious, previously presented solutions like "a match director could allow/diasallow multiple entries as appropriate" or assuming that safety concerns like muzzling could not and would not be mitigated.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Maybe the proponents of PCC can just be drowned with an endless series of objections.

Or perhaps we could have a respectful debate about making a significant change to USPSA handgun shooting rules.

But hey if you want to rush to be a victim, that's your call.

That was as respectful a response as I was able to muster after reading your posts. Respectful also includes not ignoring obvious, previously presented solutions like "a match director could allow/diasallow multiple entries as appropriate" or assuming that safety concerns like muzzling could not and would not be mitigated.

As respectful as you could muster eh?

Because I ignore "obvious?"

That's pretty funny.

Tell you what, before you go all internet tough guy on me, let's just agree to disagree and move on.

[Nimitz]

How many folks who don't support PCC would support it if it was run as a separate match? I know I'd be a lot more likely to support the idea then ...

[Ultimo-Hombre]

How many folks who don't support PCC would support it if it was run as a separate match? I know I'd be a lot more likely to support the idea then ...

If it were run as a separate match, I'd go buy a gun and shoot it.

[RangerTrace]

Maybe the proponents of PCC can just be drowned with an endless series of objections.

Or perhaps we could have a respectful debate about making a significant change to USPSA handgun shooting rules.

But hey if you want to rush to be a victim, that's your call.

That was as respectful a response as I was able to muster after reading your posts. Respectful also includes not ignoring obvious, previously presented solutions like "a match director could allow/diasallow multiple entries as appropriate" or assuming that safety concerns like muzzling could not and would not be mitigated.

As respectful as you could muster eh?

Because I ignore "obvious?"

That's pretty funny.

Tell you what, before you go all internet tough guy on me, let's just agree to disagree and move on.

Great idea...

[Smitty79]

I have only shot PCC in 3 gun and unaffiliated 3 speed steel matches. They are great fun. They are not appropriate in current USPSA pistol matches. As usual, the guys who run the local club match I regularly attend, set up a great match yesterday. It was challenging, without being punishing. It had a wide variety of challenges and shooting positions. Many of these shooting positions would be impossible with a long gun. I don't want my pistol match diluted with long guns. If you want to shoot rifles, shoot a rifle or 3 gun match. Both are lots of fun.

[Lensman]

How many folks who don't support PCC would support it if it was run as a separate match? I know I'd be a lot more likely to support the idea then ...

I would as a separate match or a separate discipline. I would even spend money to participate. It would be good for me in many ways.

One thing I don't understand is why are some trying to make USPSA all things for all people all in one match? At least it seems that way to me.

Now, getting USPSA really cranking on Steel Challenge and 3-Gun and *adding* PCC to the list of disciplines it offers is an idea I can get behind.

Mike

Edited January 24, 2016 by Lensman

[Ultimo-Hombre]

How many folks who don't support PCC would support it if it was run as a separate match? I know I'd be a lot more likely to support the idea then ...

I would as a separate match or a separate discipline. I would even spend money to participate. It would be good for me in many ways.

One thing I don't understand is why are some trying to make USPSA all things for all people all in one match? At least it seems that way to me.

Now, getting USPSA really cranking on Steel Challenge and 3-Gun and *adding* PCC to the list of disciplines it offers is an idea I can get behind.

Mike

Spot on amigo!

This is the message I plan on sending up the chain.

[teros135]

PCC as a separate discipline, or a part of 3-gun, that's a good idea. It's where it fits.

We've seen a lot of discussion about how to "shoehorn" it into pistol matches, but it still doesn't fit.

[Sarge]

The problem with a separate match, at least around here, is all the ranges are spoken for every weekend with some type of match or another. There would be no way to do it, especially for only a few of us to play

[StealthyBlagga]

PCC is a much better fit for handgun matches due to the target types and distances... a PCC is a poor choice for a 3-Gun match as it does not have the reach.

[Cherryriver]

Actually, teros135 and StealthyBlagga, I believe you've described it perfectly: neither 'twixt nor 'tween.
A division with no place to call home.

[MarkCO]

I do actively shoot pistol, rifle, shotgun and 3gun matches. THE BEST place for PCC is pistol matches. Same targets and distances for PISTOL cartridges. If you think a PCC is a rifle, then one of two things is true of that thought, and neither is flattering.

Sure, PCC could be shoehorned into 3Gun matches, but it would greatly limit the stage design. It can be added to USPSA pistol matches without much of an issue at all. I got to talk to Mike Foley and Troy about it at SHOT a bit and I see it as beneficial to the health of USPSA.

[RangerTrace]

I do actively shoot pistol, rifle, shotgun and 3gun matches. THE BEST place for PCC is pistol matches. Same targets and distances for PISTOL cartridges. If you think a PCC is a rifle, then one of two things is true of that thought, and neither is flattering.

Sure, PCC could be shoehorned into 3Gun matches, but it would greatly limit the stage design. It can be added to USPSA pistol matches without much of an issue at all. I got to talk to Mike Foley and Troy about it at SHOT a bit and I see it as beneficial to the health of USPSA.

[Alaskapopo]

I do actively shoot pistol, rifle, shotgun and 3gun matches. THE BEST place for PCC is pistol matches. Same targets and distances for PISTOL cartridges. If you think a PCC is a rifle, then one of two things is true of that thought, and neither is flattering.

Sure, PCC could be shoehorned into 3Gun matches, but it would greatly limit the stage design. It can be added to USPSA pistol matches without much of an issue at all. I got to talk to Mike Foley and Troy about it at SHOT a bit and I see it as beneficial to the health of USPSA.

Right on the money.

[Chills1994]

As a spectator watching this thread, this has certainly been interesting watching the "ebb and flow" as this discussion went on.

[ZackJones]

For PCC in steel challenge I proposed we have PCCI for those shooting irons and PCCO for those shooting with optic. This mirrors rimfire pistol and rifle guidelines. How would we handle this in USPSA matches? Add PCC as division and then allow competitor to choose between shooting with irons or optic but score them all together? That's how we do it in steel challenge.

BTW we shot PCC as a side match after our normal steel challenge match this past weekend and it was great fun!

[2MoreChains]

I think there have been some good take-always in amongst all the chatter. For me (as a MD, stage designer, and guy who schedules matches at my local club):

1. Don't bias stage design towards PCC (or any division for that matter).

2. MD discretion on allowing somebody to shoot multiple divisions for score at a Lvl 1, or just pick one and shoot it. Personally I lean toward the latter.

3. PCC in case or bag or cart while not shooting. Ix-nay on slinging it while not shooting since we wouldn't want to muzzle Ultimo-hombre's sexy knees... Or take a page from 3gun and setup a table on the side of the bay pointing into the berm where everyone can stage their PCCs. Seems like a non-issue.

4. Side matches or dedicated matches are possible, but it's a question of numbers and whether you have enough to justify doing them. With only a handful of interested people, piggy-backing onto a pistol match seems to make the most sense.

5. Instead of re-writing a bunch of rules, I think it would be easier to write in exceptions to the key rules where PCC differs from pistol.

Example: For 8.2.3 (the rule that says cannot touch gun or loading devices after standby and before the start signal) write in "8.2.3.1 PCC may be held in one or two hands, depending on other requirements of the WSB."

For 8.3.7 (the ICHDH command), add "8.3.7.5 PCC -release bolt, pull trigger. Once verified that chamber is empty, insert chamber flag or secure in case."

etc.

[rr4406pak]

Just heard about this and I'm very excited about it!

Shooting a Pistol Caliber Carbine in USPSA will be AWESOME!

Can't wait!

[bmiller]

Just heard about this and I'm very excited about it!

Shooting a Pistol Caliber Carbine in USPSA will be AWESOME!

Can't wait!

I think it is great too!

[Scrmblr]

The club I frequent is moving to a Saturday and Sunday club match format due to high number of shooters at our Sunday matches. If you add PCC, and someone wants to shoot that and their pistol, limit it to one gun per day. At Majors, have them shoot PCC or their pistol on the Staff day (which anyone can request to shoot that day), and the other gun on the normal match day(s). I understand that not all clubs would be able to make use of a double match format, but it's not a bad option.

On another note: I think that the rules and stage descriptions would need to specify using props as support for the PCC. This could raise some safety concerns, and impact the durability of some props.