Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[Ray_Z]

Heavens to hemorrhoids batman! , it won't be long before we can have one gun, two gun, or three gun all in the same match. Or does 3 gun nation have the latter taken already?

[teros135]

I actually struggled with "hater". I first typed "contrarian", but thought it sounded too snobbish. How would you like to be referred too? And you didn't answer the question.

Why do you need to have a label? I simply don't agree with you. I don't think rifles belong here as a Division. Locals can have side matches, fine, but don't pretend this is a rifle organization.

I wasn't answering a question, just stating an opinion on the topic.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

This thread is gonna get nuked.

It's going around this morning.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

I really don't see the addition of PCC division will cause a flood of new shooters. There just aren't that many PCCs out there. I

Then what is the point of it, that has been my point and question. And because of burn out doesn't really answer that. Getting burned out probably has little to do with the shooting, more likely all the other stuff involved in shooting the sport.

Yup

[Strick]

What I think gets overlooked a little with Divisions like this and CO, as well as L10, revo, and even SSTK is the added annoyance for MD at level II matches. Now they have to figure out what to do with awards and prize tables for even more divisions populated by 5 or less people at their match (sure they could not include them also but that causes posterior pain as well).

[Cherryriver]

My club's competition director just came to me with this. I hadn't even heard a peep about PCC until yesterday.

Since our club's annual competition program director's meeting is tomorrow, I'm having to research this as quickly as possible while polling my cohorts about their take on it.

Here's what I think I've seen so far: 3-gun enthusiasts are highly enthusiastic; AR lovers are also. Ten years ago, that group was small, but now it's not. And with 3-gun getting all the ink, noise, attention, and money these days, it's a noticeable, vocal group.

To the people who actually go to the club and set up matches every month, it's natural that their viewpoint tends towards splitting opinions into two groups: match attendees and match producers. Of course, I fall into the latter: I run two separate programs 60 miles apart, totaling 140+ shooters a month during the fair weather season. That's a lot of match production, and doesn't even count working majors and other clubs.
That colors my (our) view, and so far, the view from this perspective tends towards (I did not say "absolutely is") being chary of including PCC division in pistol matches.
First of all, as mentioned above, new rulebooks are needed, and then the workaday ROs have to learn them. Please don't pooh-pooh this item: as someone who deals with rangemaster questions almost every Sunday morning, and will tell you it's an unpleasant, unpopular, anger-generating operation, even the tiniest hole in the rulebook is a big and serious problem for MD/RMs. And they don't need any new problems.

Secondly, unless and until I'm convinced otherwise, from what I can tell, adding PCC division will slow a match down. From the match producer's point of view, this is a problem too, if my thinking turns out to be true. We get out of the club late enough as it is. At the one club, where I get 80-90 shooters in six bays, heading up the driveway at 4pm is about all I can expect, having to make sure the last wisp of paster tape is picked up and the whole property is spotless so that the general membership doesn't kick the USPSA program out.

I see casing, uncasing, flagging, and all the rest as adding time. Of course, anything at all "adds time", but this looks to us as a significant add. Show me I'm wrong there, and I'll recant.

Finally, for many clubs, pistol stages won't really work so well as "fun" carbine stages, especially close up. I personally design an awful lot of stages so I will have to really get down in the grass and work this question out for myself.
Some clubs, as noted, may not permit long guns to be handled the same as pistols. I've run up against that in my 3-gun MD days. Minor, but potentially an issue.

So far, my intention is to offer two diverging answers when asked:
1) Go shoot 3-gun if you want to shoot long guns in action shooting sports. There's a lot of them, including at both of my clubs.

2) I will be happy to authorize a single-division PCC match under the USPSA auspices once the rulebook comes out, but it will be a separate weekend with a separate staff.
Not burning out staff is one of the top priorities of MDs.
I'm keeping an open mind until I can learn more, but for now, PCC division isn't in my USPSA pistol matches.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Cherryriver

[motosapiens]

good points by cherry river above. As a steel MD, I have definitely noticed that rifle shooters take longer than pistol shooters due to the casing-uncasing routine. It's not a huge amount of time, but it does add up.

[ctay]

I like the idea personally but I think there are more match related problems than what we have identified here. For instance, gun in a box stages. I can build a box that will fit all the pistols I will see but not one for rifles. You could use dump barrel type thing for rifles but that does interfere with the design and setup.

We are all well setup for pistol matches - be it a revolver or an open gun. That is why the addition of CO didn't make much difference. We are not all well setup for the small but real challenges of adding a rifle so I suspect it will be more difficult than just adding another division like CO.

I think PPC is a great idea, I just don't think it necessarily belongs in a pistol match.

[OPENB]

I don't see this getting nuked. I'm not offended in the least & I hope I haven't offended anyone, just a really interesting discussion, & Cherry River has brought up some good points.

[brisix]

All good points. We have heard from folks that have run PCC as part of their matches with success. Other MDs have brought up valid concerns. We will know more once we see the proposal from Foley. I feel it is a good idea to add PCC. There seems to be enough support for it and it does sound like a blast. If you don't like the idea of PCC then you have every right not to include it in a match you put on. Not every club is the same and some will have success and others it will be a disaster. I am not a MD but help with setup and tear down at my local club. We have six stages and around 75 shooters. First shots around 8:30-9am and we are out of there around 12-1pm. I do not see how adding PCC will negatively effect our club matches. Especially if you limit a competitor to shot only one division. I foresee most MDs that implement PCC as it's own stand alone match both club level and major. Possible some major matches adding a PCC match after the main Pistol Match is over. If enough people enjoy PCC then MDs will probably not have a problem getting staff to stay and help the extra day.

Ultimately the market will decide.

[motosapiens]

I like the idea personally but I think there are more match related problems than what we have identified here. For instance, gun in a box stages.

I've only been shooting 5 years, including a few nationals and some area matches and some sectionals near home and away from home, and I don't think I have yet seen a gun in the box in a uspsa match. I see them in idpa all the time. perhaps the pcc guys should shoot idpa matches. I'd love to see the concealment.

[Nimitz]

I actually struggled with "hater". I first typed "contrarian", but thought it sounded too snobbish. How would you like to be referred too? And you didn't answer the question.

How about 'respectful dissenter'?

[Alaskapopo]

Lets put it up for a vote and be done with it. I vote for PCC as a divison.

Pat

[OPENB]

I like that Nimitz!

While I would enjoy PCC, I certainly understand the hesitancy of the MDs that have voiced there concerns, & respect their points of view. I guess we'll see what we see. I still have goals to meet with my handguns, so I'll be shooting something.

Someone start a poll!

Edited January 23, 2016 by OPENB

[teros135]

I like the idea personally but I think there are more match related problems than what we have identified here. For instance, gun in a box stages.

I've only been shooting 5 years, including a few nationals and some area matches and some sectionals near home and away from home, and I don't think I have yet seen a gun in the box in a uspsa match. I see them in idpa all the time. perhaps the pcc guys should shoot idpa matches. I'd love to see the concealment.

How about Classifier 99-21, Mini Mart? That'd be a gas with a rifle ("Mr. Bad Guy, please wait while I back up a few steps so I can pull this really long gun out from under the counter and aim it at you...").

For concealment, you'd naturally use the "duster" coat, which is used everywhere by self-respecting bad guys. I know, I've seen it in the movies

[Onepocket]

You have no clue how fast a rifle can be.

[Nik Habicht]

good points by cherry river above. As a steel MD, I have definitely noticed that rifle shooters take longer than pistol shooters due to the casing-uncasing routine. It's not a huge amount of time, but it does add up.

There's probably a work around. Require flags. Flagged rifles may be carried muzzle up (muzzle down?) on the range. Slings are acceptable. There'll be no casing/uncasing at the line -- that's what safe areas are for. Make it clear that if PCC shooters slow the match down by casing/uncasing at the line, that you'll no longer offer it....

[Cherryriver]

Nik, this is a very pertinent point.

One thing that doesn't get mentioned much in this topic is that match officials struggle with new competitors plenty enough.
Now, I'm going to put this as carefully as I can, but when MDs talk among themselves, possibly the most frequent topic is new shooters and the things they do that make MDing a sanity-shortening process.

It's much worse, I regret to report, with new AR shooters. This is a phenomenon that every single 3-gun MD of my acquaintance has talked, and complained, about at great length.
ARs are hugely popular, and seemingly everybody legal to own one wants to have one these days, and to shoot it fast. So they bring them to 3-gun matches in droves.
At one of my clubs, the 3-gun MD has multiple stories of having to assign new competitors to squads with expert instructors available, because they arrived at the match without even knowing how to load, safe, and fire the gun.
I am not making this up. Heaven help us all. And this is common.

I can think of reasons why this sort of thing is so much more pronounced with ARs than any other gun, but it doesn't matter to this discussion. What does matter is that I seriously don't want people walking around the range I'm responsible for with uncased, unholstered, loose guns. Way bad things can happen way too fast, and just the problem of innocent people being forced to inspect other shooters' rifling at close range alone will give me great pause.
In this forum, perhaps we're all so serious that we wouldn't have a gunhandling fail during a match, but I have to tell you, ARs and new shooters are an exceptional problem. Not just in my matches, but in every one in the region, comprising at least a half-dozen programs.
So that's yet another reason I'd be disinclined to include PCC Division in my pistol matches.

[gng4life]

Lets put it up for a vote and be done with it. I vote for PCC as a divison.

Pat

I'm in...

Sent from the range

[gng4life]

Nik, this is a very pertinent point.

One thing that doesn't get mentioned much in this topic is that match officials struggle with new competitors plenty enough.

Now, I'm going to put this as carefully as I can, but when MDs talk among themselves, possibly the most frequent topic is new shooters and the things they do that make MDing a sanity-shortening process.

It's much worse, I regret to report, with new AR shooters. This is a phenomenon that every single 3-gun MD of my acquaintance has talked, and complained, about at great length.

ARs are hugely popular, and seemingly everybody legal to own one wants to have one these days, and to shoot it fast. So they bring them to 3-gun matches in droves.

At one of my clubs, the 3-gun MD has multiple stories of having to assign new competitors to squads with expert instructors available, because they arrived at the match without even knowing how to load, safe, and fire the gun.

I am not making this up. Heaven help us all. And this is common.

I can think of reasons why this sort of thing is so much more pronounced with ARs than any other gun, but it doesn't matter to this discussion. What does matter is that I seriously don't want people walking around the range I'm responsible for with uncased, unholstered, loose guns. Way bad things can happen way too fast, and just the problem of innocent people being forced to inspect other shooters' rifling at close range alone will give me great pause.

In this forum, perhaps we're all so serious that we wouldn't have a gunhandling fail during a match, but I have to tell you, ARs and new shooters are an exceptional problem. Not just in my matches, but in every one in the region, comprising at least a half-dozen programs.

So that's yet another reason I'd be disinclined to include PCC Division in my pistol matches.

The same can be said for a new pistol that a shooter just purchased and is unfamiliar with the function. As a former MD, I held everything from USPSA, SCSA, AND 3G matches. I saw just as many or more issues with pistol shooters than 3G or rifle stages/matches. In fact, we have had many, many more DQs at pistol matches than 3G matches/stages so you tell me which one is more of a liability...

Sent from the range

[Strick]

good points by cherry river above. As a steel MD, I have definitely noticed that rifle shooters take longer than pistol shooters due to the casing-uncasing routine. It's not a huge amount of time, but it does add up.

There's probably a work around. Require flags. Flagged rifles may be carried muzzle up (muzzle down?) on the range. Slings are acceptable. There'll be no casing/uncasing at the line -- that's what safe areas are for. Make it clear that if PCC shooters slow the match down by casing/uncasing at the line, that you'll no longer offer it....

Which is the funny part to me. As long as it is a rifle I can carry it all over the range but if it is a handgun that falls out of a holster at lunch and I pick it up I am DQ'ed. Love the logic

[teros135]

No, if it falls out of the holster at lunch you have to get a RO to pick it up. No DQ unless you pick it up yourself.

But I see your point. And I've looked at too many rifle and shogun muzzles at local 3-gun matches - from people who were regulars at 3-gun matches. Not fun. Doesn't happen with pistols (carried around holstered), which is what we're about.

[mscott]

good points by cherry river above. As a steel MD, I have definitely noticed that rifle shooters take longer than pistol shooters due to the casing-uncasing routine. It's not a huge amount of time, but it does add up.

There's probably a work around. Require flags. Flagged rifles may be carried muzzle up (muzzle down?) on the range. Slings are acceptable. There'll be no casing/uncasing at the line -- that's what safe areas are for. Make it clear that if PCC shooters slow the match down by casing/uncasing at the line, that you'll no longer offer it....

If shooters aren't allowed to case there rifles there will need to be storage racks at each bay for them. Obviously something for the host club to take care of, but I don't see racks at every range I go to.

[slemmo]

I'm an IPSC rifle shooter mainly, so just going to give a few pointers.

First of all, delays because of unbagging/bagging........In IPSC rifle we use rifle racks right at the stage, if you have a buddy you can even have him fetch the rifle for you and hold it while your making final prep for the stage, unbagging at the stage is generally not allowed unless required by the stage because of space limitations or other matters, in that case it will be mentioned in the stage briefing.

Load and make ready takes no more time on a rifle than a pistol (I shoot IPSC pistol matches as well). Also, people shooting PCC are going to be shooting at open pistol speeds and are probably going to pick up a few seconds on every stage through the match compared to the slower divisions. Might not amount to much, but there's no way in general I can see that adding PCC to a pistol match would delay things.

Pointing the rifle at someone outside of cof in IPSC rifle is instant match DQ. You unbag at the safety area closest to the stage you shoot, then carry the rifle muzzle up to the rifle rack. Rifles are always flagged until load and make ready, and are flagged immediately following unload and show clear. Then carried muzzle up either back to the rack or to the safety and bagged there.

Edited January 23, 2016 by slemmo

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Really looking forward to getting my knees muzzled all day long by guys with PCC rifles slung across their chests.

"Chamber flags" really do nothing to make me more happy about it.