Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[slemmo]

Why on earth would you want to allow people to walk around with rifles slung across their chest?

[TonytheTiger]

Really looking forward to getting my knees muzzled all day long by guys with PCC rifles slung across their chests.

"Chamber flags" really do nothing to make me more happy about it.

Sounds like your picturing more of a TacTimmy convention than a USPSA match. If it makes you feel better, my holstered pistol muzzles my knee all day and I still manage to sleep peacefully at night. Edited January 23, 2016 by TonytheTiger

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Really looking forward to getting my knees muzzled all day long by guys with PCC rifles slung across their chests.

"Chamber flags" really do nothing to make me more happy about it.

Sounds like your picturing more of a TacTimmy convention than a USPSA match. If it makes you feel better, my holstered pistol muzzles my knee all day and I still manage to sleep peacefully at night.

YOUR knee amigo.

[TonytheTiger]

Really looking forward to getting my knees muzzled all day long by guys with PCC rifles slung across their chests.

"Chamber flags" really do nothing to make me more happy about it.

Sounds like your picturing more of a TacTimmy convention than a USPSA match. If it makes you feel better, my holstered pistol muzzles my knee all day and I still manage to sleep peacefully at night.

YOUR knee amigo.

I understand your dislike for other people's guns flagging your body parts, that part of my post was just some light humor. But like Slemmo said, why the hell would be people be walking around like that?

[Onepocket]

Why not go to the line with a bagged gun make ready, shoot the stage and then show clear and re-bag? Can't get any safer than that!

[RangerTrace]

Really looking forward to getting my knees muzzled all day long by guys with PCC rifles slung across their chests.

"Chamber flags" really do nothing to make me more happy about it.

Sounds like your picturing more of a TacTimmy convention than a USPSA match. If it makes you feel better, my holstered pistol muzzles my knee all day and I still manage to sleep peacefully at night.

YOUR knee amigo.

I understand your dislike for other people's guns flagging your body parts, that part of my post was just some light humor. But like Slemmo said, why the hell would be people be walking around like that?

That would suck for everybody, most of all, those carrying the slung rifles if they helped tape and reset like they are supposed to.

[wgj3]

It's quite obvious that some folk just arent going to be ok with CO or PCC, and I'm ok with that. I have no interest in CO or REV at this point in my life, but some may and I'm glad they have a place to play.

PCC is a fast-growing concept at this point. It's going to happen. Just let it and let the folk who want to play join the fun. We can deal with newbies; without them, the sport would die. We can deal with a few rule mods for starts and such; we're big boys and girls.

This is all about attitude. If we want to, it can certainly be a cool addition to an already successful sport.

Every match can choose to include (or not) the PCC division. Every match can choose to allow multiple entries (or not).

Let's just roll with it and see how it goes. If it truly causes problems, I'm sure we can all agree that it's a detriment and go another route. If it works, then we have gained that many more supporters for USPSA and limiting match slots becomes more common; what a great problem to have!

Edited January 23, 2016 by wgj3

[wgj3]

And, I dont understand how bagging and unbagging a carbine is any different from a rimfire pistol at SC. I shoot with folk at a few clubs who bag and unbag their pistol during USPSA matches. Nobody calls for running them out of town for it...

[teros135]

Really looking forward to getting my knees muzzled all day long by guys with PCC rifles slung across their chests.

"Chamber flags" really do nothing to make me more happy about it.

Sounds like your picturing more of a TacTimmy convention than a USPSA match. If it makes you feel better, my holstered pistol muzzles my knee all day and I still manage to sleep peacefully at night.

YOUR knee amigo.

I understand your dislike for other people's guns flagging your body parts, that part of my post was just some light humor. But like Slemmo said, why the hell would be people be walking around like that?

That would suck for everybody, most of all, those carrying the slung rifles if they helped tape and reset like they are supposed to.

I'd vote that no way should there be "slung rifles".

This just keeps sounding more and more like a way to sneak multi-gun into USPSA, under the guise of "it's fun" and "it'll grow the sport".

Sorry, I don't agree with rifles in USPSA, except perhaps as a local-match "fun" side event, which will make a few people happy and get them to the range.

Edited January 23, 2016 by teros135

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Really looking forward to getting my knees muzzled all day long by guys with PCC rifles slung across their chests.

"Chamber flags" really do nothing to make me more happy about it.

Sounds like your picturing more of a TacTimmy convention than a USPSA match. If it makes you feel better, my holstered pistol muzzles my knee all day and I still manage to sleep peacefully at night.

YOUR knee amigo.

I understand your dislike for other people's guns flagging your body parts, that part of my post was just some light humor. But like Slemmo said, why the hell would be people be walking around like that?

Uh, rules.

I have no idea what El Prez is pitching for rules, but being the realist/ pessimist I believe this is a forgone conclusion given El Prez's comments on Facebook regarding his intent/ desire. A lot of guys have proposed/ are envisioning:: after COF , show clear, insert chamber flag, let it hang, range is clear::

But hey, let's see what rules are added to the USPSA handgun match rule book to cover all this.

As for all the sentiments of "the MD dosnt have to allow the division in his match" --- that is rubbish!

The match directors I know are profoundly inclusive, accommodating and professional. If USPSA recognizes a division, I suspect these guys will do all they can to accommodate a guy wanting to shoot it.

[teros135]

You have no clue how fast a rifle can be.

Really? In Jerry Miculek's hands, maybe, but the average Joe I see shooting rifles around here isn't all that quick. And the time they take to get prepared has already been mentioned.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

I have two concerns.

1. If guys are shooting multiple guns it will negatively impact match duration. Many factors, beyond just the extra time on the clock exist. It has been well expressed in other posts. Namely, the two gun guy will spend 100% more time not helping run the stage, because he has double the gun to care for.

2. IF the rules allow the rifle to be cold slung, we are gonna get swept a lot. I don't like that. It's not about the guys I know. It's the people I have never met. Just last night I saw a guy shoot himself in the leg "cleaning his gun" standing next to a dude with his muzzle pointed right at my femur... Hell no. Hopefully this issue won't be a problem if the addition to the handgun rule book requires rifles be cased outside of the COF.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre

[ac4wordplay]

Why not go to the line with a bagged gun make ready, shoot the stage and then show clear and re-bag? Can't get any safer than that!

Exactly.

And, I dont understand how bagging and unbagging a carbine is any different from a rimfire pistol at SC. I shoot with folk at a few clubs who bag and unbag their pistol during USPSA matches. Nobody calls for running them out of town for it...

We allow and assist Open competitors to do this pretty regularly. What's the difference?

Edited January 23, 2016 by ac4wordplay

[ac4wordplay]

The command "... if clear, hammer down, holster" could be/mean (for PCC) "...if clear, hammer down, bag"

[teros135]

You have no clue how fast a rifle can be.

Really? In Jerry Miculek's hands, maybe, but the average Joe I see shooting rifles around here isn't all that quick. And the time they take to get prepared has already been mentioned.

Context?

Plate rack at 9 yards= not much difference.

Plate rack at 35 yards= colossal difference.

How often do we see a 35-yard plate rack in USPSA? (Please don't just tell us you've seen one - I'm asking how often.)

Again, this type of question makes one wonder how far the rifle people will want to go to "feel included", like complaining that there aren't enough rifle-type challenges in the game (like 35-yard plate racks, for instance).

[OPENB]

It's quite obvious that some folk just arent going to be ok with CO or PCC, and I'm ok with that. I have no interest in CO or REV at this point in my life, but some may and I'm glad they have a place to play.

PCC is a fast-growing concept at this point. It's going to happen. Just let it and let the folk who want to play join the fun. We can deal with newbies; without them, the sport would die. We can deal with a few rule mods for starts and such; we're big boys and girls.

This is all about attitude. If we want to, it can certainly be a cool addition to an already successful sport.

Every match can choose to include (or not) the PCC division. Every match can choose to allow multiple entries (or not).

Let's just roll with it and see how it goes. If it truly causes problems, I'm sure we can all agree that it's a detriment and go another route. If it works, then we have gained that many more supporters for USPSA and limiting match slots becomes more common; what a great problem to have!

+1, I feel exactly.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

You have no clue how fast a rifle can be.

Really? In Jerry Miculek's hands, maybe, but the average Joe I see shooting rifles around here isn't all that quick. And the time they take to get prepared has already been mentioned.

Context?

Plate rack at 9 yards= not much difference.

Plate rack at 35 yards= colossal difference.

How often do we see a 35-yard plate rack in USPSA? (Please don't just tell us you've seen one - I'm asking how often.)

Again, this type of question makes one wonder how far the rifle people will want to go to "feel included", like complaining that there aren't enough rifle-type challenges in the game (like 35-yard plate racks, for instance).

Hey, I am with you.. Not arguing that point.

Stage design will continue to be squarely in the hands of any given match director. Any bias a stage has will be open to direct communication between local shooters and their MD.

The biggest philosophical difference I see here is the " bring in more shooters right away, it's good for USPSA" camp.....

And the " we are already at or near capacity, let's look at ways to expand our capacity as part of a comprehensive growth plan" camp.

[Beastly]

Maybe the proponents of PCC can just be drowned with an endless series of objections. Or maybe those objections that could be easily addressed by an MD considering a specific match situation (disallow multiple entries in overbooked matches) or with some basic safety rules (muzzle = DQ).

Other sports have figured the saefty part out - is USPSA unable to learn from others and adopt their best practices?

The arguments remind me of moving across various martial arts disciplines. Each is extremely skilled and routinely trains in techniques that most of the other disciplines consider to be highly unsafe.

New shooters are always a challenge and frankly noobs with pistols are more challenging for an RO to 'manage' than noobs with long guns.

Growth of our sport is a good thing. Change is inevitable. Things that don't change get stale and wither. Growing pains are 'good pain' - more interest, demand and more people will ultimately ADD matches and shooting opportunties.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Beastly

[Chills1994]

When this thread first started, I thought a PCC "division" would actually be a separate match after the regular pistol match.

I really didn't think it was going to be an all out deal where people would actually get classified in the PCC division.

I guess if you wanted to run people all through the same match, you could make all the PCC group together in the same squad.

EDIT: since I was once a match director, I would rather have the handgun match in the morning. Everybody gets done shooting. The handgun competitors either eat lunch and come back for the PCC match in the afternoon...or they go home and are finished shooting for the day.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Chills1994

[Nik Habicht]

Nik, this is a very pertinent point.

One thing that doesn't get mentioned much in this topic is that match officials struggle with new competitors plenty enough.

Now, I'm going to put this as carefully as I can, but when MDs talk among themselves, possibly the most frequent topic is new shooters and the things they do that make MDing a sanity-shortening process.

It's much worse, I regret to report, with new AR shooters. This is a phenomenon that every single 3-gun MD of my acquaintance has talked, and complained, about at great length.

ARs are hugely popular, and seemingly everybody legal to own one wants to have one these days, and to shoot it fast. So they bring them to 3-gun matches in droves.

At one of my clubs, the 3-gun MD has multiple stories of having to assign new competitors to squads with expert instructors available, because they arrived at the match without even knowing how to load, safe, and fire the gun.

I am not making this up. Heaven help us all. And this is common.

I can think of reasons why this sort of thing is so much more pronounced with ARs than any other gun, but it doesn't matter to this discussion. What does matter is that I seriously don't want people walking around the range I'm responsible for with uncased, unholstered, loose guns. Way bad things can happen way too fast, and just the problem of innocent people being forced to inspect other shooters' rifling at close range alone will give me great pause.

In this forum, perhaps we're all so serious that we wouldn't have a gunhandling fail during a match, but I have to tell you, ARs and new shooters are an exceptional problem. Not just in my matches, but in every one in the region, comprising at least a half-dozen programs.

So that's yet another reason I'd be disinclined to include PCC Division in my pistol matches.

The same can be said for a new pistol that a shooter just purchased and is unfamiliar with the function. As a former MD, I held everything from USPSA, SCSA, AND 3G matches. I saw just as many or more issues with pistol shooters than 3G or rifle stages/matches. In fact, we have had many, many more DQs at pistol matches than 3G matches/stages so you tell me which one is more of a liability...

Sent from the range

Are we talking numbers or percentages? I've been disqualified once with a rifle, and once with a handgun. I've entered ~ 500 handgun matches in various disciplines, shooting perhaps 2500-3000 stages. Got DQ'd once. I've only entered a couple of dozen rifle or 3 gun matches -- and while I was familiar with the manual of arms, and had extensive competition experience, I still managed to break the 180 with a rifle at one of those matches.

So those two disqualifications expressed as a percentage of matches or of stages attempted is going to be vastly different. Those concerns about new competitors aren't unwarranted -- and keep in mind too that most of the match staff will have vastly more experience both competing with a handgun and officiating handgun matches.

[Nik Habicht]

good points by cherry river above. As a steel MD, I have definitely noticed that rifle shooters take longer than pistol shooters due to the casing-uncasing routine. It's not a huge amount of time, but it does add up.

There's probably a work around. Require flags. Flagged rifles may be carried muzzle up (muzzle down?) on the range. Slings are acceptable. There'll be no casing/uncasing at the line -- that's what safe areas are for. Make it clear that if PCC shooters slow the match down by casing/uncasing at the line, that you'll no longer offer it....

Which is the funny part to me. As long as it is a rifle I can carry it all over the range but if it is a handgun that falls out of a holster at lunch and I pick it up I am DQ'ed. Love the logic

The logic is simple -- transport the equipment in the safest manner possible, let the shooter handle it as little as possible.

Of course we could require that long guns be transported locked open, chamber flag inserted, locked into transparent Pelican hard cases, and carried muzzle down -- that would be safest, if only Pelican would make transparent long gun cases.....

[Nik Habicht]

No, if it falls out of the holster at lunch you have to get a RO to pick it up. No DQ unless you pick it up yourself.

But I see your point. And I've looked at too many rifle and shogun muzzles at local 3-gun matches - from people who were regulars at 3-gun matches. Not fun. Doesn't happen with pistols (carried around holstered), which is what we're about.

One of the safest matches I ever shot was the old Old Bridge 3 gun match -- where there were primary safety rules and then regular match rules. You could be disqualified under the regular match rules for something like breaking the 180, but the primary rules were the first four -- cover someone else with a muzzle while moving between stages and you're going home....

Simple stuff -- don't point a gun at your fellow competitors if you want to complete the match. Genius.

[Nik Habicht]

good points by cherry river above. As a steel MD, I have definitely noticed that rifle shooters take longer than pistol shooters due to the casing-uncasing routine. It's not a huge amount of time, but it does add up.

There's probably a work around. Require flags. Flagged rifles may be carried muzzle up (muzzle down?) on the range. Slings are acceptable. There'll be no casing/uncasing at the line -- that's what safe areas are for. Make it clear that if PCC shooters slow the match down by casing/uncasing at the line, that you'll no longer offer it....

If shooters aren't allowed to case there rifles there will need to be storage racks at each bay for them. Obviously something for the host club to take care of, but I don't see racks at every range I go to.

No there won't need to be racks -- just safe tables. When you're on deck, you pop your case on the safe table, and remove your rifle. Carry it to the line in the approved manner, shoot the stage, show clear, and carry it back to the safe table to recase it.....

Done right, you should be passing the next competitor as you return from shooting....

[Nik Habicht]

Why on earth would you want to allow people to walk around with rifles slung across their chest?

How else would you carry your rifle on a multigun stage that has you starting with pistol?

[gng4life]

Nik, you are right, they are not unwarranted but I also don't see a huge cause for concern. All I'm really getting at is let's compare apples to apples. Handling a new AR is not much different than handling a new pistol for a lot of newbies, not people like you who are very knowledgeable. The DQ's for rifles/3G and pistol matches tend to be about the same overall as pistol matches. That could be for a number of reasons but the fact remains that they are about the same and I'll pull some matches and get some exact numbers. I feel the statement about there is much more of a problem with ARs in general is grossly over exaggerated and I wanted to make the point that it is not much different.

Also, I do agree they should be bagged or strapped to a cart or in a stage rack, never just hanging from the shoulder of a shooter during the match.