Should USPSA Eliminate A Division?

[EngineerEli]

Why should USPSA eliminate any division?

What is the benefit?

In my opinion, it is to help those divisions that don't have as much participation. When I shot area 5 there were like 35 limited shooters and about the same production and I think like 6 L10 and maybe 17 SS shooters, being able to put those two divisions together, would give you a larger group to compete against. Also for major matches you need a certain number of people in each division, then each class of each division to even give out awards. This would be a way of acknowledging more shooters even in, what are now, two divisions that just don't often have the numbers at many matches.

[Sarge]

For all of the people that keep making the "What about the banned/limited mag capacity states" argument. Rule 3.3.1 addresses this (I have listed it below). This rule effectively eliminates the need for the Limited 10 division all together.

3.3.1 - In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match.

It addresses states like NY and Colorado but NOT Massachusetts.

How or Why would this rule not function properly to ensure that all competitors adhere to the Massachusetts 10 round capacity limit law? Every division should be restricted to 10 round magazines in that state.

in some states (like california, i dunno about mass), competitors are NOT restricted by law to 10 round mags. They just can't buy or import any MORE high-cap mags. So 3.3.1 does not apply to those states)

Indeed. We have discussed this ten times in the past and seem to always reach the same conclusion. The rule as written doesn't cover every state

[elguapo]

Eli, you're assuming that people will move from the division that you kill to the one that survives. What if they don't? Too bad so sad?

I think shooters are well capable of deciding what to shoot, no need to force them someplace else because you or anyone else thinks their division is too small.

Edited September 22, 2015 by elguapo

[RJH]

I think everyone who wants to throw out a division should go into politics, they sure seem to like wanting to control everyone else's lives. I think this is back door gun control:-)

[EngineerEli]

Eli, you're assuming that people will move from the division that you kill to the one that survives. What if they don't? Too bad so sad?

I think shooters are well capable of deciding what to shoot, no need to force them someplace else because you or anyone else thinks their division is too small.

Just for the record, I am by no means gung ho about eliminating any of the divisions. I actually hadn't even considered it until I saw this thread, and for that matter I voted no, but I'm just entertaining the idea, and discussing possible logic, if we found a more substantial reason to try to reduce the overall number of different divisions. I think it is very unlikely any of this would ever happen.

[Blueridge]

First off, the poll is no good, how can you pick NOT to eliminate a division and then have to pick a division ???

Second, what the hell is wantered down ??

The prize money ?!? The prize selection ?!?

This comes up every couple of years, dang limited/lim10/Single Stack/Productions guys tired of getting

whipped by us lowly revolver shooters

Revolver is the smallest division because it's the HARDEST division.

You would be correct Sir!!!

[Nimitz]

Does this actually happen at USPSA matches in those states? I know it does in Hawaii .....

Yes, we use that rule in NJ

Cool, 10 rd Open division ....

I always knew I made a great decision by leaving th state when I was 18 ....

[DedOn]

I think the divisions ought to be centered around two things: Type of sights and mag capacity.

If you want a dot, you're in Open

If you want a dot but don't want to go full blown Open you have Carry Otics (if it survives the provisional period).

If you want to run a hi-cap gun but with iron sights you're in Limited

If you want to run a low-cap gun with other iron sights, then see below

I seem to recall reading a comment where somebody was espousing an idea that USPSA should combine the 3 low-cap divisions Prod, SS, and L10 (excluding REVO for the moment) into one division. Establish a max capacity of 8 rnds for major and 10 rnds for minor. SA, striker fired, DA/SA shoot heads up in that "low-cap" division. Settle on one standard for gear placement in this low-cap division, i.e. Prod rules which require everything behind the hipbone but allow DOH holsters.

It's the indian, not the bow right? But sometimes the capacity of the quiver can be a game changer on some stages/matches.

Let's race!

I think this is a great idea. Then we would see how those Unicorns being limited to the same capacity do against SA metal guns like 1911. I think this would be a game changer in production if you could use ANY factrory gun but limiting the capacity.

[Nimitz]

Eli, you're assuming that people will move from the division that you kill to the one that survives. What if they don't? Too bad so sad?

I think shooters are well capable of deciding what to shoot, no need to force them someplace else because you or anyone else thinks their division is too small.

Just for the record, I am by no means gung ho about eliminating any of the divisions. I actually hadn't even considered it until I saw this thread, and for that matter I voted no, but I'm just entertaining the idea, and discussing possible logic, if we found a more substantial reason to try to reduce the overall number of different divisions. I think it is very unlikely any of this would ever happen.

Our soon-to-be new President has said it publicly several times that L10 was created to solve a problem that no longer exists .... what do you think he's going to do after he takes office ...?

[Vlad]

Does this actually happen at USPSA matches in those states? I know it does in Hawaii .....

Yes, we use that rule in NJ

Cool, 10 rd Open division ....

I always knew I made a great decision by leaving th state when I was 18 ....

15 but who's counting

[jakemaul]

I think I said this, but I would not *currently* support eliminating a division, at least not without a lot more thought on an overall restructure (which may have fewer divisions).

I *would* potentially support a rule that division wins can transfer to other division winners. What I mean is:

• If you win Revolver, you're automatically eligible to win any other division.
• If you win Single Stack, you're automatically eligible to win Prod, Lim-10, Lim, and Open.
• If you win Prod, you're automatically eligible to win Lim-10, Lim, and Open.
• If you win Lim-10, you're automatically eligible to win Lim and Open.
• If you win Limited, you're automatically eligible to win Open.

The first two are debatable since the guns don't legally transfer between all the other divisions, but the last 3 are solid. Any Prod gun can compete in Lim-10, Lim, and Open, and so on.

Of course, it's entirely possible (and usually the case) that someone in one of those higher divisions is going to beat you and this won't matter.

This eliminates the hider problem (as far as prizes and winners). You can shoot Limited-10, but you don't have to beat just the other Limited-10 folks... you gotta beat all the "slower" divisions, too. It also helps with the population problem- we could require a minimum of 50 shooters in a division to issue a prize, but it can go to the "combined winner" of Prod, Lim-10, and Limited, which is more likely to meet that threshold.

You could also take all the shooters from the harder divisions instead of just the winner. That way if you come in 2nd in Single Stack but still beat all the Production shooters, then 1st place SS will get one of the 2 prizes and you'll get the other. So now you can't complain that you did well in your division but didn't get a prize, while someone who did worse than you in a faster division did get one.

[Jammer1911]

What is the real driver for getting rid of divisions? I for one do not support that. I am a SS shooter (primary) although I have guns for all divisions except Open (by choice). Match directors for L2 and up matches have the ability to tailor thier matches to whatever they want them to be. We want to grow the sport and the USPSA not reduce it and I would leave both if my division of choice were eliminated. I would see that as not being want in the sport and go elsewhere. JMHO!!!!

[jhgtyre]

What is the real driver for getting rid of divisions? I for one do not support that. I am a SS shooter (primary) although I have guns for all divisions except Open (by choice). Match directors for L2 and up matches have the ability to tailor thier matches to whatever they want them to be. We want to grow the sport and the USPSA not reduce it and I would leave both if my division of choice were eliminated. I would see that as not being want in the sport and go elsewhere. JMHO!!!!

Technically you have multiple "Open" guns since all the guns legal for other divisions are open legal as well

[Nik Habicht]

If we want less divisions, I would say we combine Single Stack and L10. I wouldn't even thing it would take much adjustment to the rules... Then it would bring this new combined division to a participation level above Open! (according to previous stats)

Combined L10/Single Stack rules:

-Start cocked and locked

-No optics

-No more than 10 rds in the magazine at the start signal (can go as long as they want)

-Allowance for Minor or Major PF (Major PF must be .40 cal or above, or .357 sig for those goof balls)

-Otherwise fair game

And of course -- any gun that's legal in L10 can play, right?

[Nik Habicht]

Does this actually happen at USPSA matches in those states? I know it does in Hawaii .....

Yes, we use that rule in NJ

Cool, 10 rd Open division ....

I always knew I made a great decision by leaving th state when I was 18 ....

Nah -- 15+1, because while NJ may suck it sucks less than states with a ten round limit....

[GunBugBit]

L10 is still needed for guys in ban states. Even if they travel to bigger matches they often don't own stand capacity mags and must still shoot in L10 or be destroyed by guys with standard mags.

Or they could shoot a real man's division, legal in every state (singlestack).

And everyone would have to shoot .45 ACP, only one power factor: >=190.

I'd be good with that.

[Jammer1911]

What is the real driver for getting rid of divisions? I for one do not support that. I am a SS shooter (primary) although I have guns for all divisions except Open (by choice). Match directors for L2 and up matches have the ability to tailor thier matches to whatever they want them to be. We want to grow the sport and the USPSA not reduce it and I would leave both if my division of choice were eliminated. I would see that as not being want in the sport and go elsewhere. JMHO!!!!

Technically you have multiple "Open" guns since all the guns legal for other divisions are open legal as well

True I concede your response.

[pmt]

I'm for getting rid of L10 for the same reason so many are against CO.

It's dumb

We don't need it

It waters down the sport

Nobody shoots it

We already have a division for that (Go shoot Limited)

Everyone should shoot a SS 45acp the way (insert your favorite old dead guy) intended it to be.

blah, blah, blah

Silly, isn't it?

[tarosean]

I could understand cutting divisions if they were held as a stand alone Nationals Event and lost money... However they piggy back with other divisions nationals.

Just seems counter productive to turn away possible new shooters. With the only option to toss them in open where they will get beat so badly they wont ever come back...

[Sarge]

toss them in open where they will get beat so badly they wont ever come back...

I get thumped pretty good every weekend in open. I keep coming back.

[Steve RA]

Some people are just slow learners !!!

[RIIID]

What should happen, make L10 a category inside Limited Div. and if CO/OW makes the mark it would be a category inside of Open Div.. No new Div and one pulled into another. Who knows maybe Revo may loose interest some day and go away like Modified did. Modified always ran inside of the Open Nationals back in the day so this could work.

Rich

[Gary Stevens]

Can someone tell me how a category works in the sense of awards?

Assuming you have a match with a prize table, does the Limited shooter get a prize and the L-10 shooter get a plaque and a hand shake?

I really don't understand how this works.

[d_striker]

For all of the people that keep making the "What about the banned/limited mag capacity states" argument. Rule 3.3.1 addresses this (I have listed it below). This rule effectively eliminates the need for the Limited 10 division all together.

3.3.1 - In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match.

It addresses states like NY and Colorado but NOT Massachusetts.

How or Why would this rule not function properly to ensure that all competitors adhere to the Massachusetts 10 round capacity limit law? Every division should be restricted to 10 round magazines in that state.

Because MA allows grand-fathered pre-ban magazines, they are not completely banned. If you can find and are willing to pay you can get pre-ban glock mags and shoot limited. If you shoot an M&P you are SOL (they don't exist). Either compete at a severe disadvantage, choose to tempt becoming a felon, or don't play.

Theres a division for Glocks and M&P's with 10 round mags. It's called Production.

[revoman]

My question is to all who have voted to eliminate a division is. Do you or have you ever shot that division and if you haven't why does it bother you that the division is offered so others can shoot what they have or like?