co-exprs Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I would like to see both hotdogs and buns come in packages of 8.Keep dreaming. I'm flexible... Packages of 10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) I'd also like to see a division where a G19, 870 with 8rd tube, and basic AR with red dot is "considered" competitive. That's fine and dandy at a LOCAL match. But if you bring those things to a MAJOR Match don't be entitled to be competitive. Besides what happens when you make a new Division at a Major match? Salient Arms G19, Taran Tactical 870 and a JP rifle with a Prismatic, Gamer is going to game in the GAME. Edited June 3, 2015 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted June 3, 2015 Author Share Posted June 3, 2015 How do you guys feel about letting mag fed shotguns into tac optics with the caveat that they have iron sights, start loaded to nine and only allowed to load 5 rounds into each subsequent mag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) I run all of my matches under USPSA rules, Mainly because of the safety aspect and the fact that they have been tweaked due to gammers already. However, until USPSA cleans up their act and returns some value, I am only running L1 matches. Fixes two of the "problems" Stealthy mentioned. Edited June 3, 2015 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) I run all of my matches under USPSA rules, Mainly because of the safety aspect and the fact that they have been tweaked due to gammers already. However, until USPSA cleans up their act and returns some value, I am only running L1 matches. Fixes two of the "problems" Stealthy mentioned. We went the other way - we reference USPSA rules in our version of IMA rules. Edited June 3, 2015 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 How do you guys feel about letting mag fed shotguns into tac optics with the caveat that they have iron sights, start loaded to nine and only allowed to load 5 rounds into each subsequent mag? Wouldn't that make it a 'mag changing' competition rather than a shooting competition? Why the desire by so many to limit mags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Winters Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I would like to see grip safeties acknowledged on 1911 and other style pistols as safeties. It IS a safety device that prevents the gun from firing. Dropping a 1911 in a bucket can, on occasion, bump the thumb safety, but the grip safety, if working, should not lead to a DQ. It is verifiable. Again consistancy from all the various rules we play by. Another Andy thing. Paul : -)# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakman Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 While not a "rule" per-se, there is a new trend in the 3-gun shooting community with which I take issue. Hot re-holstering is a horrible idea. I'm not sure why 3-Gun Nation thought it would be a good idea to allow this (in my opinion) unsafe action during matches, but it resulted in a guy shooting himself in the leg at a local match last month. With the popularity of 3-gun increasing at an exponential rate, the local shooting communities have a huge influx of new shooters. It's been my personal experience that many of these new competitors are not really trained, and in some cases, not all that familiar with their equipment. If you put them into a situation where a stage calls for a hot re-holster, that's just a recipe for eventual disaster. That particular action is one that REQUIRES training and intimate knowledge of your firearms/equipment and many of these new shooters just don't have it. That's not a dig against these guys in any way....it's just a straight-up fact. We were all there at one point or another in our shooting careers. We put rules in-place first and foremost to protect people against injury to themselves and others while at matches. It seems to me that the hot re-holster concept is counter-intuitive to the "spirit of the law" we all play by. Fortunately, in the case of last month's accident, it wasn't overly serious, and I believe the individual went home that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon49erfan Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 You can say that every action with a firearm REQUIRES training and intimate knowledge of your firearm and equipment. Hot reholster didn't make that guy shoot him self, pulling the trigger did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitchinCamaro Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 You can say that every action with a firearm REQUIRES training and intimate knowledge of your firearm and equipment. Hot reholster didn't make that guy shoot him self, pulling the trigger did. I agree, but ultimately I don't trust anyone else's firearms handling when it comes to my personal safety at a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 You can say that every action with a firearm REQUIRES training and intimate knowledge of your firearm and equipment. Hot reholster didn't make that guy shoot him self, pulling the trigger did. While I agree that ultimately the responsibility belongs to the shooter, holstering a hot gun on the clock is just inviting trouble. We have tons of new shooters entering our sport. Most of whom are not trained in fire arms use. At our last local match we had 35 people show up for the new shooters briefing, only 4 of which had any prior competition shooting experience at all. The rules, matches and stages have to keep the new guys in mind. Our game is pretty stinkin fun as it is without pushng the boundaries of safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFH Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 The OP's thread is very interesting but it may be in danger of getting sidetracked, and maybe the discussion of reholstering should be moved. However, no set of rules that I know of require a shooter to reholster a hot pistol. There are always other options. If one does not feel comfortable holstering their hot pistol, they may clear the pistol and then holster it. The decision is theirs. While this takes a couple of seconds longer to accomplish, the shooter must assess their own level of competence and make their decision based on their skill level. There are slippery slope arguments that could be made against reholstering and many other of the other things we do in a 3-gun match. I particularly like the one that shooting a shotgun which is not shouldered is somehow unsafe, I guess Tom Knapp and Travis Mears should be barred form every shooting again! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 There are slippery slope arguments that could be made against reholstering and many other of the other things we do in a 3-gun match. I particularly like the one that shooting a shotgun which is not shouldered is somehow unsafe, I guess Tom Knapp and Travis Mears should be barred form every shooting again! Andy Andy, Tom Knapp is banned from shooting. He passed away in 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFH Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Sorry, I didn't know. I got to see him once, and it was a great pleasure. Very nice man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I'd also like to see a division where a G19, 870 with 8rd tube, and basic AR with red dot is "considered" competitive. That's fine and dandy at a LOCAL match. But if you bring those things to a MAJOR Match don't be entitled to be competitive. Besides what happens when you make a new Division at a Major match? Salient Arms G19, Taran Tactical 870 and a JP rifle with a Prismatic, Gamer is going to game in the GAME. If the other shooters in your division are all abiding by the same division restrictions what does Local or Major matter? Everyone in the division is being measured under the same equipment restrictions while shooting the same targets as everyone else. The whole point would be no custom shop guns so when someone brings a Salient, TTI, or JP out to play - then they can but they're no longer in the off the shelf division. I'd even go so far as to say no 1x optics like a Prismatic. Only iron sights or actual red dots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Good luck defining "custom shop guns". I would argue a JP ready rifle wouldn't fall into that category. And certainly not a Stag 3g or the like, which are legitimate factory rifles that are pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Sorry, I didn't know. I got to see him once, and it was a great pleasure. Very nice man. I had the pleasure of watching his shooting a couple times. He was outstanding with a shotgun. I wasn't positive about his passing when I saw your post, but, thought I read that he left the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langenator Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 There are slippery slope arguments that could be made against reholstering and many other of the other things we do in a 3-gun match. I particularly like the one that shooting a shotgun which is not shouldered is somehow unsafe, I guess Tom Knapp and Travis Mears should be barred form every shooting again! Andy Andy, Tom Knapp is banned from shooting. He passed away in 2013. He's only banned on this plane of existence. He got promoted to shoot in the Heavenly Division, with The Big Man Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 The OP's thread is very interesting but it may be in danger of getting sidetracked, and maybe the discussion of reholstering should be moved. However, no set of rules that I know of require a shooter to reholster a hot pistol. There are always other options. If one does not feel comfortable holstering their hot pistol, they may clear the pistol and then holster it. The decision is theirs. While this takes a couple of seconds longer to accomplish, the shooter must assess their own level of competence and make their decision based on their skill level. There are slippery slope arguments that could be made against reholstering and many other of the other things we do in a 3-gun match. I particularly like the one that shooting a shotgun which is not shouldered is somehow unsafe, I guess Tom Knapp and Travis Mears should be barred form every shooting again! Andy Tom Knapp was awesome. Everyone who has ever owned a Benelli has tried shooting it upside down, etc. Reholstering a hot gun? This is a basic firearms skill. But as Andy pointed out, not required anywhere. The rule about shooting a non-shouldered shotgun is dumb. It is a 3 Gun Nation and Tarheel 3 Gun rule. I call it Steve McQueen style. I still have not received an explanation of that rule. I would like tubes to go back to 8+1 for non-Open or Unlimited Class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximis228 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 How about everyone does a little dry fire. Divisions will change on their own. The only way for YOU to get better is to practice. Everything else is just blowing smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Moltke, currently the rules at every major match already defines what equipment restrictions a shooter is allowed to shoot in their division though, all it sounds like to me is we are trying to justify a "participation ribbon" division. Kind of one of the reason I stop shooting USPSA for so long. as for "factory" firearms thing, NRA TPC already has division set with restriction to that (no gamer guns) I've shot that for about 3 or 4 years as long as I could stand it (some rules I didn't agree with such as blind stages.) I seen just as many "gamer" guns in that game as I see in a Major 3gun matches, the only difference is that the guys that were winning these matches left there shooting jersey's at home... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyinTX Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I'd also like to see a division where a G19, 870 with 8rd tube, and basic AR with red dot is "considered" competitive. That's fine and dandy at a LOCAL match. But if you bring those things to a MAJOR Match don't be entitled to be competitive. Besides what happens when you make a new Division at a Major match? Salient Arms G19, Taran Tactical 870 and a JP rifle with a Prismatic, Gamer is going to game in the GAME. If the other shooters in your division are all abiding by the same division restrictions what does Local or Major matter? Everyone in the division is being measured under the same equipment restrictions while shooting the same targets as everyone else. The whole point would be no custom shop guns so when someone brings a Salient, TTI, or JP out to play - then they can but they're no longer in the off the shelf division. I'd even go so far as to say no 1x optics like a Prismatic. Only iron sights or actual red dots. How do you verify an off the shelf status of a gun? Are homebuilt ars out of luck because a factory didn't put it together? A lot of non competition oriented rifles cost more than a JP. An Aimpoint t-2 costs a lot more than a Burris AR-1x but the Burris or the Pris are out because they 1x sights but not a red dot? I'd love for limited to be pump shotguns only, it would save me about a grand, but I still wouldn't be winning anything. My contribution to the OPs question, after reading several major match limited equipment rulesets I just wish they all specified limited be limited to "double stack rifle magazines only." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 How about everyone does a little dry fire. Divisions will change on their own. The only way for YOU to get better is to practice. Everything else is just blowing smoke. Is there anything about rules changes in your post? Divisions do change, by magic. Got that right. We're talking about the game. You're talking about practice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d29VsG35DQM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted June 3, 2015 Author Share Posted June 3, 2015 I like the idea of having to use a pump for limited. I would go out and buy a nova tomorrow if it were so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I'd like a rule against changing rules. Sometimes rules need changing, but unless there is a gross safety issue not covered by existing rules or someone discovers a loophole I could drive the Capitol building through, every rule set should come with a disclaimer that says "This rulebook will not be changed until $currentyear+3". It may be that we desire certain rules changed, but lets give them a few years to make sure we really want it changed and that the change is really needed and that there are no second order effects. I know that personally I rather not read a new rule book before every other match or so. But I'm a curmudgeon that way .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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