kitsapshooter Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 At a match I attended I saw the following occur. Make ready command given. gun loaded and holstered Another competitor noticed 2 close targets had not been taped Shooter clasps hands above head, to stay clear of loaded firearm and the R/O allowed the targets to be taped. Range was cleared and the COF was continued. When asked about his action the R/O said it was OK because the shooter was experienced and knew what he was doing (HUH) I see this a violation of rule 8.3.8 "Range is clear" since the shooter had a loaded firearm holstered while someone was done range and we were in a COF at that point.. Should the R/O have had the competitor clear his gun. declare the range clear and then have the targets taped or was his action correct? Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 If you have all day and you really think shooters are going to draw and shoot while other competitors are downrange taping, when under the direct supervision of the RO, sure, you could have the competitor clear his gun. It certainly wouldn't be wrong. We don't have all day and we believe supervised shooters are safe, so we treat this as an RO discretion item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mach1soldier Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 By the rules, should have been clear before anyone walked down range. With that said, Nearly every club match I have shot, will have the competitor holster and wait while someone tapes real quick. Right answer, No but I also shoot with guys that have been doing it for a long time so I'm not worried about getting shot in the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) For sure, saying 'range is clear' is not warranted, but what rule exactly prevents someone from going downrange and taping under the RO's direction while the competitor's loaded gun is holstered? 8.3.8 says after 'range is clear' everyone can go downrange to reset (unsupervised), but there is nothing in the rulebook that I see that precludes the RO safely allowing someone to go downrange to fix something when the range is not clear. Perhaps I'm not looking hard enough. Edited March 12, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Different set of rules, I know, but at the Bianchi Cup, ROs stand in front of the shooters on the line who have loaded firearms, facing the shooters while range staff goes down-range to change targets after the 15-yard line has been fired. Alan~^~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I've been on all 3 sides of situation, guy who sees target, shooter and RO. In all instances, I have no problem with a loaded gun staying in the holster and having the target pasted. I trust they aren't going to shoot the stage with me knowingly down range ( I make sure the RO knows, don't just run out with pasters without saying anything). As a shooter, I'm not going to draw and shoot with someone downrange. As an RO, ill tell the shooter to put his hands on his head then ill stand immediately in front of them so they cant do anything anyway. Of course, all this can be avoided with a helpful squad of pasters and an RO who does a quick scan as best they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I've been on all 3 sides of situation, guy who sees target, shooter and RO. In all instances, I have no problem with a loaded gun staying in the holster and having the target pasted. I trust they aren't going to shoot the stage with me knowingly down range ( I make sure the RO knows, don't just run out with pasters without saying anything). As a shooter, I'm not going to draw and shoot with someone downrange. As an RO, ill tell the shooter to put his hands on his head then ill stand immediately in front of them so they cant do anything anyway. Of course, all this can be avoided with a helpful squad of pasters and an RO who does a quick scan as best they can. All true Corey...but things can get missed trying to run shooters quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 This is also a pretty normal occurrence in cases where the wind blows a popper over after MR but before the buzzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuelie777 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Always have the shooter clear his gun. Issue the command "Range is Clear". We are not in that big of a hurry. You might have other issues. The RO should again validate the stage is set up correctly. That is how I so this and recommend everyone so the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Always have the shooter clear his gun. Issue the command "Range is Clear". We are not in that big of a hurry. You might have other issues. The RO should again validate the stage is set up correctly. That is how I so this and recommend everyone so the same. You can certainly do that, but it is probably unnecessary. Holstered guns should be fine with two people watching them. I've never seen it done that way, the 'pretend you are statue while I watch you as a hawk' approach is what I'm noticed everyone use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamiethesquid Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Conversly, during a match where we had multiple calibration issues with a couple of poppers that were settling in the soft sand. The RO asked me to paint them up in case it failed to go down again. I grabbed a can of paint and jogged to the steel. I wear electronic muffs and can hear quite well. Just as I get to the targets I hear him tell the shooter "Make Ready". I yelled out some obscenities (first thing that came to mind looking down the barrel of the next shooters gun). He was a fairly inexperienced RO and he didn't RO again that day. I am an RO and I totally understand how things can get on the range. Especially when there is a back up and another squad is waiting behind you. However, we are the best insurance of safety on the range. However you want to handle the untaped target is fine. I usually have the shooter put his hands on top of his head and my second RO/Scorekeeper will stand within arms reach while I tape or reset the missed target. That is just my routine. Not any more right or wrong than any other way. Just the way I do it. Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 so when my squad tells me to go downrange and stand off to the side and hold a popper that keeps falling, that is probably not the way to do it? kidding the whole stand like the statue of liberty thing is a little over the top. we have stages like el prez where the shooter is facing uprange loaded, without doing the statue thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacon12224 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I have never understood the whole "act like a statue" or the "hands on top of your head" thing. Just walk around in front of the shooter and chat for a second while the popper or target gets taken care of. Nobody is going to draw on you if you are standing two feet in front of them talking to them. I recall a 3 gun match where the wind was so bad, we didn't even bother setting the steel until we had the shooter loaded and ready to go because the wind would blow the steel down before we could get them loaded and started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) the whole stand like the statue of liberty thing is a little over the top. we have stages like el prez where the shooter is facing uprange loaded, without doing the statue thing. Its mostly a mental thing. It basically places both the shooter and the RO in a heightened alertnesses mindset. The shooter is unlikely to be tempted to do his pre-beeper routine or cold grip the gun or whatever. Edited March 12, 2015 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) I think the "hands on top of head" thing is just more reassurrance to the person running downrange that no one is touching a gun. It's that way on many rifle ranges. Loaded or not, if no one is around it, the chances of it just going off is almost nil. And Deacon...dude...you gotta change your avatar ... Edited March 12, 2015 by gng4life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I have never understood the whole "act like a statue" or the "hands on top of your head" thing. Just walk around in front of the shooter and chat for a second while the popper or target gets taken care of. Nobody is going to draw on you if you are standing two feet in front of them talking to them. This is a very sensible approach imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishop414 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Personally hate the hands on head. When RO'ing I have the shooter relax, tell them what is going on and stand in front of them making sure nothing happens. The shooter is still trying to get his mind ready for the COF and any un-necessary arm movements, positions or conversation really don't need to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Different set of rules, I know, but at the Bianchi Cup, ROs stand in front of the shooters on the line who have loaded firearms, facing the shooters while range staff goes down-range to change targets after the 15-yard line has been fired. This is not the first time I have heard of that practice and I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in a CRO course. Whether it was mentioned as something OK to do or not, I can't recall. That said, my club has this come up from time to time and as far as I am aware, the RO has the shooter remain where they are while someone goes downrange to fix whatever the problem is. In fact, in one case, I was the shooter and noticed a target that wasn't pasted and the RO had me stand while he went and pasted the target. That was, perhaps, not the best idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming the Merciless Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Not just at local matches. I've seen it done that way at the Nationals and at Area matches. I was the shooter airing out my underarms (hands on head) at the Area 2 match at Rio Salado when a popper blew down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash74 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I am glad to read that common sense rains supreme. Loaded gun stays in holster and someone fixes the targets while the shooter just stands there. Those nancy's that demand an unload and show clear or put their hand up should get a clue. If the shooter is too stupid to perform this menial task (stand still for a minute) then they should not own a gun. The first time I was told to put my hands up and wait in the shooting box, I asked the RO if he thought I was stupid. He looked puzzled. I simply informed him that I was capable of not shooting someone I was looking at directly. Simple common sense. Hands up, hands up, WTF do you think you are accomplishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 By the rules, should have been clear before anyone walked down range. Rule number please? With that said, Nearly every club match I have shot, will have the competitor holster and wait while someone tapes real quick. Right answer, No but I also shoot with guys that have been doing it for a long time so I'm not worried about getting shot in the back. This is not a club match thing. This happens at all levels. The shooter would be under close observation by the RO so nobody is going to get shot in the back. Experienced has nothing to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) I am glad to read that common sense rains supreme. Loaded gun stays in holster and someone fixes the targets while the shooter just stands there. Those nancy's that demand an unload and show clear or put their hand up should get a clue. If the shooter is too stupid to perform this menial task (stand still for a minute) then they should not own a gun. The first time I was told to put my hands up and wait in the shooting box, I asked the RO if he thought I was stupid. He looked puzzled. I simply informed him that I was capable of not shooting someone I was looking at directly. Simple common sense. Hands up, hands up, WTF do you think you are accomplishing. Honestly, with that attitude, I would have made you ULSC. You may not agree with it, but you don't need to be a smartass to the RO. Edited March 12, 2015 by JAFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I am glad to read that common sense rains supreme. Loaded gun stays in holster and someone fixes the targets while the shooter just stands there. Those nancy's that demand an unload and show clear or put their hand up should get a clue. If the shooter is too stupid to perform this menial task (stand still for a minute) then they should not own a gun. The first time I was told to put my hands up and wait in the shooting box, I asked the RO if he thought I was stupid. He looked puzzled. I simply informed him that I was capable of not shooting someone I was looking at directly. Simple common sense. Hands up, hands up, WTF do you think you are accomplishing. Honestly, with that attitude, I would have made you ULSC. You may not agree with it, but you don't need to be a smartass to the RO. Agreed. I would have cleared you as well because I would have my doubts about your ability to not shoot somebody directly in front of you. Rule number one is don't be a dick and it goes both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. Is this an answer to a specific question? Since the shooter in this thread is under the supervision of an RO it really doesn't apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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