When is taping legal

[frag316]

I've asked competitors to clear a tabled firearm in these circumstances, and I've also asked them to holster a tabled gun. Mostly depends on whether the competitor is either a known knucklehead or a newbie.

I've also asked folks to put their hands up, again mostly newbies or known knuckleheads. I usually want them to be in front of their chest, so I can see them. I usually stand on the competitor's gun side, square to the gun. With experienced folks, I'm not quite as paranoid.

I usually put my hands up automatically if I've made ready, just to make everyone aware that I'm aware what's happened.

[bikerburgess]

As a shooter I do whatever makes the RO happy, as a RO I just stand in front and have them relax. I get a kick out of the hands on head thing because about the place I'm not standing around with a loaded gun is at the range and that seams to go pretty well

[Ming the Merciless]

Not just at local matches. I've seen it done that way at the Nationals and at Area matches. I was the shooter airing out my underarms (hands on head) at the Area 2 match at Rio Salado when a popper blew down.

I am glad to read that common sense rains supreme. Loaded gun stays in holster and someone fixes the targets while the shooter just stands there. Those nancy's that demand an unload and show clear or put their hand up should get a clue. If the shooter is too stupid to perform this menial task (stand still for a minute) then they should not own a gun. The first time I was told to put my hands up and wait in the shooting box, I asked the RO if he thought I was stupid. He looked puzzled. I simply informed him that I was capable of not shooting someone I was looking at directly. Simple common sense. Hands up, hands up, WTF do you think you are accomplishing.

I was more than happy to air out my pits, the RO on the other hand....probably not so much!!! IIRC it was about 90 degrees and late in the day.

[Pepelepew]

As a squad member I am not going down range unless there is a visual indication it is being made safe while the shooter has a loaded gun. That could be hands on head, arms crossed and/or the RO standing in front of the shooter.

Local range method is hands on head. It is automatic for me to put my hands on my head if a popper blows down or target is found untaped before the RO says anything.

As an RO, I always try to stand in front of the shooter until the range is clear. If a target needs attention after make ready and the shooter is holstered, I do the same. I want to prove to people downrange it is safe.

[afoulk]

As a squad member I am not going down range unless there is a visual indication it is being made safe while the shooter has a loaded gun. That could be hands on head, arms crossed and/or the RO standing in front of the shooter.

Local range method is hands on head. It is automatic for me to put my hands on my head if a popper blows down or target is found untaped before the RO says anything.

As an RO, I always try to stand in front of the shooter until the range is clear. If a target needs attention after make ready and the shooter is holstered, I do the same. I want to prove to people downrange it is safe.

What would you do if I simply asked the shooter to turn to face up range and keep his gun holstered by whatever means he sees fit?

[Sarge]

I think it's odd that as safe and well controlled as our rules and matches are some think a guy is just going to draw a gun and shoot them. The RO needs to be in a position to instill confidence that it is safe to go down range. Once you see the RO has it under control just go down range. It's not that hard.

[Nathanb]

As far as I'm concerned a holstered gun isn't going to jump out and shoot someone without some manual intervention so if Im Down range and someone is facing me with a holstered and loaded firearm I'm not too worried especially if it is known I'm down range. I'm more worried about the stages where someone is facing uprange and is trying to spin and fire as fast as possible.

[Pepelepew]

As a squad member I am not going down range unless there is a visual indication it is being made safe while the shooter has a loaded gun. That could be hands on head, arms crossed and/or the RO standing in front of the shooter.

Local range method is hands on head. It is automatic for me to put my hands on my head if a popper blows down or target is found untaped before the RO says anything.

As an RO, I always try to stand in front of the shooter until the range is clear. If a target needs attention after make ready and the shooter is holstered, I do the same. I want to prove to people downrange it is safe.

What would you do if I simply asked the shooter to turn to face up range and keep his gun holstered by whatever means he sees fit?

I can't be sure what your telling the shooter as I have hearing protection on. If the starting position is facing uprange this would be problematic. Just do what ever to make it clear to those going down range it is safe and under your control and it won't be an issue.

[JAFO]

I just think hands on head is just an added layer of safety that doesn't really cost you anything. If it's a hot day and a long match, minds wander. The RO has already told the shooter he could make ready. Not saying the shooter is all of a sudden going to start shooting, but he might think, "Oh, did I top off?" and draw the gun to check. Most competitors aren't stupid and wouldn't think of that consciously, but shit happens. If his hands are resting on his gun and mags, would the RO be able to stop him before he drew his loaded gun? Maybe. But the motion of hands going down to the gun would draw the RO's attention immediately.

[eric4069]

I have never understood the whole "act like a statue" or the "hands on top of your head" thing. Just walk around in front of the shooter and chat for a second while the popper or target gets taken care of. Nobody is going to draw on you if you are standing two feet in front of them talking to them.

This is a very sensible approach imho.

this is what I do.

Eric

[frag316]

I have never understood the whole "act like a statue" or the "hands on top of your head" thing. Just walk around in front of the shooter and chat for a second while the popper or target gets taken care of. Nobody is going to draw on you if you are standing two feet in front of them talking to them. I recall a 3 gun match where the wind was so bad, we didn't even bother setting the steel until we had the shooter loaded and ready to go because the wind would blow the steel down before we could get them loaded and started.

So why would you need to walk in front of them at all? If they're not going to draw down on you from two feet away, does that mean someone roaming around in the stage would get drawn down upon because they're farther away? That doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me, or at least not more sense than asking someone to keep their hands away from their gun.

And how are you standing in front of the guy? Are you facing him? Now you can't see what the person making an adjustment is doing. If you face away, you can't observe the competitor.

[Ming the Merciless]

So why would you need to walk in front of them at all? If they're not going to draw down on you from two feet away, does that mean someone roaming around in the stage would get drawn down upon because they're farther away? That doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me, or at least not more sense than asking someone to keep their hands away from their gun.

And how are you standing in front of the guy? Are you facing him? Now you can't see what the person making an adjustment is doing. If you face away, you can't observe the competitor.

So would you recommend the RO stand behind the loaded competitor, perhaps with the RO holding a gun to the competitors back to guarantee no funny business?

[sfchorn]

In this instance, I send a squad member downrange to tape/reset under the supervision of the clipboard RO. As a timer RO, I stand directly in front of, and facing, the competitor. If they talk to me, I will enjoy a moment of conversation. If they have their eyes closed visualizing the stage, I stay quiet. Once the clipboard RO gives me an all clear, I will visually look at the range to double check. I don't make anyone put their hands on their head.

As a courtesy, I will give the competitor the Make Ready command a second time. This puts them (and me) as close to the normal routine as possible.

[frag316]

So why would you need to walk in front of them at all? If they're not going to draw down on you from two feet away, does that mean someone roaming around in the stage would get drawn down upon because they're farther away? That doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me, or at least not more sense than asking someone to keep their hands away from their gun.

And how are you standing in front of the guy? Are you facing him? Now you can't see what the person making an adjustment is doing. If you face away, you can't observe the competitor.

So would you recommend the RO stand behind the loaded competitor, perhaps with the RO holding a gun to the competitors back to guarantee no funny business?

No, I already posted what I do--I stand on the competitor's gun side, so I can see them and what's going on downrange. I normally ask they keep their hands in my field of view.

In this instance, I send a squad member downrange to tape/reset under the supervision of the clipboard RO. As a timer RO, I stand directly in front of, and facing, the competitor. If they talk to me, I will enjoy a moment of conversation. If they have their eyes closed visualizing the stage, I stay quiet. Once the clipboard RO gives me an all clear, I will visually look at the range to double check. I don't make anyone put their hands on their head.

As a courtesy, I will give the competitor the Make Ready command a second time. This puts them (and me) as close to the normal routine as possible.

I guess I just don't understand the point of standing downrange of the competitor, especially when you emphasize that you don't make them put their hands on top of their head.

In most ways, it boils down to trust. I think some folks have the assumption that there's an inherent lack of trust in making a competitor put their hands on top of their head. I don't see it that way, because what that does is gives the guy who's nice enough to go downrange a warm fuzzy feeling that there's no shenanigans going on. It's a courtesy to that guy.

Either that, or unload everyone when you have to repair a stage. But to imply that there's something inherently wrong with making someone put their hands up is silly.

[spanky]

I don't quite understand why this thread exists.

[motosapiens]

I don't quite understand why this thread exists.

Because a forum member asked a reasonable question.

[MAC702]

In this instance, I send a squad member downrange to tape/reset under the supervision of the clipboard RO. As a timer RO, I stand directly in front of, and facing, the competitor. If they talk to me, I will enjoy a moment of conversation. If they have their eyes closed visualizing the stage, I stay quiet. Once the clipboard RO gives me an all clear, I will visually look at the range to double check. I don't make anyone put their hands on their head.

As a courtesy, I will give the competitor the Make Ready command a second time. This puts them (and me) as close to the normal routine as possible.

Excellent answer. I learned something on this one. Repeating the "Make Ready" command is an excellent idea. I also appreciate and agree with not forcing the competitor to do anything to disturb his preparatory routine.

[Sarge]

In this instance, I send a squad member downrange to tape/reset under the supervision of the clipboard RO. As a timer RO, I stand directly in front of, and facing, the competitor. If they talk to me, I will enjoy a moment of conversation. If they have their eyes closed visualizing the stage, I stay quiet. Once the clipboard RO gives me an all clear, I will visually look at the range to double check. I don't make anyone put their hands on their head.

As a courtesy, I will give the competitor the Make Ready command a second time. This puts them (and me) as close to the normal routine as possible.

Excellent answer. I learned something on this one. Repeating the "Make Ready" command is an excellent idea. I also appreciate and agree with not forcing the competitor to do anything to disturb his preparatory routine.

Anytime the shooters routine is interrupted he should get a fresh start with make ready. At least thats what I was taught in RO class.

[Sarge]

I don't quite understand why this thread exists.

I'm with you spanky. A lot of gum beating over nothing. RO maintains control of the shooter and everybody goes home safe and sound. I will add that a shooter once told me it caused him a lot of pain to hold his arms up for any length of time so I just got in the habit of having shooters keep their hands sort of away from their guns. i.e. folded arms etc. Just something to make the guy downrange feel more comfortable if he looks back at the shooter. It's not needed for sure but it's just a little something extra.

[MAC702]

I don't quite understand why this thread exists.

I'm with you spanky. A lot of gum beating over nothing. RO maintains control of the shooter and everybody goes home safe and sound. I will add that a shooter once told me it caused him a lot of pain to hold his arms up for any length of time so I just got in the habit of having shooters keep their hands sort of away from their guns. i.e. folded arms etc. Just something to make the guy downrange feel more comfortable if he looks back at the shooter. It's not needed for sure but it's just a little something extra.

Pain is one thing, sure, but we shouldn't be putting them in a position where blood is leaving the arms, either, until required by an assumed starting position when the shooter is ready for the "Shooter Ready" command.

And this exchange has been valuable, as several posters have noted. I thank the OP for the thread. It's obvious there were some different ways this was being done, and hopefully everyone sees some ideas they might consider.

It was only gum-beating for some that didn't have to participate at all.

Edited March 18, 2015 by MAC702

[afoulk]

If I have an RO ask me to do really anything while someone goes downrange, I ask to be unloaded. This is mostly because I don't like RO's making up DQ'able offenses on the spot. Beyond keep it holstered and not pointed at anyone, the rest is window dressing.

[Sarge]

If I have an RO ask me to do really anything while someone goes downrange, I ask to be unloaded. This is mostly because I don't like RO's making up DQ'able offenses on the spot. Beyond keep it holstered and not pointed at anyone, the rest is window dressing.

Your choice I guess. Never seen a DQ for it. If they didn't want to I just unloaded them. Simple. No tough guy stance needed.

[eric4069]

In this instance, I send a squad member downrange to tape/reset under the supervision of the clipboard RO. As a timer RO, I stand directly in front of, and facing, the competitor. If they talk to me, I will enjoy a moment of conversation. If they have their eyes closed visualizing the stage, I stay quiet. Once the clipboard RO gives me an all clear, I will visually look at the range to double check. I don't make anyone put their hands on their head.

As a courtesy, I will give the competitor the Make Ready command a second time. This puts them (and me) as close to the normal routine as possible.

Excellent answer. I learned something on this one. Repeating the "Make Ready" command is an excellent idea. I also appreciate and agree with not forcing the competitor to do anything to disturb his preparatory routine.

perfect.

Eric

[spanky]

I'm more concerned that you guys shoot with people that you don't trust enough to go uprange of them while they're holstered AND under direct RO supervision.

[ES13Raven]

Does USPSA allow "hot bays"?

I have been to several IDPA Sanctioned matches where all competitors were loaded, but not allowed to leave the bay without ULSC.

Everyone loaded, everyone downrange taping & resetting etc. No issues.