Which would be likely to further increase participation in Revolver Di

[Nik Habicht]

I'm on the fence -- and some of what I'm doing here is playing Devil's Advocate, so that the discussion continues.....

[bdpaz]

Opening it to 8 shot guns (ideally allowing Major without the .40 cal minimum!!!) will do that.

So, are you in favor of Major 6/Minor 8, or do you want to see the division go to 8 rounds while allowing major simply based on chrono?

I think we'd get the best long term results allowing 8 shots with major based on chrono, but I'll be happy with Major 6/ Minor 8 as that will still be a big improvement.

[kneelingatlas]

This is a great discussion Nik, I don't shoot Revo, but I've read all these division change threads.

Both the options you give seem equally appealing but personally, division wide minor would be the only one which would increase my odds of shooting a wheel gun in a USPSA match.

When I started shooting USPSA I owned three revolvers and half a dozen autos, I thought long and hard about cutting one of them for moon clips, but I knew if I enjoyed shooting Revolver I would be buying a 625. Then when I looked at what it would cost to get a 625 and rig, I just decided to stick with autos for USPSA.

I don't know what all that rambling tells you, but with 6 minor, I might try revolver with one of the revolvers I already own, but with 6 major / 8 minor I will most likely never shoot Revo.

[JFlowers]

My concern with the "Allow 8 Shots, PF determined at the Chrono" is that it will kill the division as it stands. 8 Minor is going to have an impact, and depending on whose figures it could range from small to massive. But allowing 8 Major means that suddenly every 6 shot revolver in the game is obsolete regardless of whose is doing the figuring.

I started shooting REVO with a 6 shot N Frame using 38 Special at Major PF. I never felt the gun was holding me back as much as I was. I don't think the same would be true against guys shooting 8 shot N Frames.

Also, how many 8 shot revolvers are there compared to all the 6 shot guns out there?

[Jaxshooter]

There are plenty of 8 shot revolvers when you look at the ICORE shooters. In reality a 5" barreled 625 is only available used now that S&W only offers a 625 in 4". Check the prices for good used 625 5" guns and you are right there with the cost of a 627 8 shot revolver. So a shooter that does not own either is going to lay out basically the same amount. If you purchase a 627 8 shot revolver it would not only be competitive in USPSA with a rule change but also ICORE and SC.

[bdpaz]

My concern with the "Allow 8 Shots, PF determined at the Chrono" is that it will kill the division as it stands. 8 Minor is going to have an impact, and depending on whose figures it could range from small to massive. But allowing 8 Major means that suddenly every 6 shot revolver in the game is obsolete regardless of whose is doing the figuring.

I started shooting REVO with a 6 shot N Frame using 38 Special at Major PF. I never felt the gun was holding me back as much as I was. I don't think the same would be true against guys shooting 8 shot N Frames.

Also, how many 8 shot revolvers are there compared to all the 6 shot guns out there?

Unlike Single Stack Major and Minor, I think there will be a significant increase in revo recovery and split times with Major over Minor in the 8 shot guns. It was too hot to go out this weekend but next Sunday I'm going to test this out comparing my minor .38 Supers against some hot factory stuff. I'll chrono to see if it is Major, but I expect it'll be close enough to get feel for the difference. If I'm wrong, I'll come back and retratct my support for 8 shot Major.

[No.343]

I'm with Brad. Change the rules to remove the limit of shots between reloads. Leave everything else the same. Let the chrono decide major or minor pf. Don't mention the number eight as the maximum capacity. Some smart, young engineer might have a design for a nine shoot revo in her purse for all I know. With a liberal set of rules someone might build it.

[sperman]

As an engineer, I like that train of thought. But how does it help the revolver division if everyone has to run out and buy the new 9 shot revolver if they want to be competitive?

[revoman]

I'm with Brad. Change the rules to remove the limit of shots between reloads. Leave everything else the same. Let the chrono decide major or minor pf. Don't mention the number eight as the maximum capacity. Some smart, young engineer might have a design for a nine shoot revo in her purse for all I know. With a liberal set of rules someone might build it.

They are already out there and have been for years. I think Vic Mahan (not sure on the last name) has a 9 or 10 shot 32mag.

[Bill Nesbitt]

but next Sunday I'm going to test this out comparing my minor .38 Supers against some hot factory stuff. I'll chrono to see if it is Major, but I expect it'll be close enough to get feel for the difference. If I'm wrong, I'll come back and retratct my support for 8 shot Major.

I've chronoed CorBon 115 and 125 jhp 38 Super and it only made about a 150-155 power factor in my 4 inch revolver. I didn't find any factory 38 super that made major.

[No.343]

As an engineer, I like that train of thought. But how does it help the revolver division if everyone has to run out and buy the new 9 shot revolver if they want to be competitive?

Revolver division is my favorite division. It is an interesting challenge and I like it the way it is. I am in favor of the change because we have to change it. It is only decaying now. Part of that is because there is no innovation in it. IF we change the rules we should change them to allow innovation. Allowing one tiny baby step won't allow for much technical growth. The proposed 8 minor change allows one additional gun. Opening up like Brad and I mentioned will allow all future revolvers of the minimum caliber to play. I am not convinced that this will make much of a difference any way. I think that revolver suffers because few shooters in a major match limit recognition. Worse than that is the fact that there is no training and few mentors. I was fortunate to have Ken and Roger, but most are not that fortunate. I have only heard of one revolver class since I started shooting revolver four years ago.

[sperman]

If that is the direction the board wants to take it, then lets make it wide open. 2 rules: No optics, no magazines. I think it would be great for the innovation of the revolver, I'm just not sure it would do much to encourage USPSA participation. (Like you, I'm not sure much of anything will make a difference.)

I've always wondered if you couldn't bleed off some of the gasses to cock the hammer and eliminate the double action pull on every shot.

[Grim]

Want to get more revolver shooters out to the matches? Easy, get rid of the moon clip and 8 round revolver divisions and just allow six shot, speed loader feed revolvers. Gasp! Blasphemy, heresy! The 600 pound gorilla in the room, and we all know it is the 625 revolvers, which by the way, there are not that many of them out there AND they are pretty expensive especially when compared to a Glock, M&P, etc.

Now I want you to consider several things that I will list below as well as the fact that the discussion here is to 'grow the sport' as well as add revenue for the clubs (these will be items 1 and 2).

3. There are a lot of people out there that would like to start taking up the shooting sports for many reasons, chief among them is to get some definite gun handling practice in due to where many people believe the country is heading. Competing would allow them practice and to test out some of their gear, which is cheaper than going to a firearms school. What they don't want to do is spend a lot of money to get into the sport and decide they do not like it.

4. Economics. Wake up! The economy sux right now and will for a loooong time. Most 'mortal' people just do not have the disposable income to go out and buy the latest Buck Rodgers ray gun 8 shot revolver or an over inflated S&W 629 moon clip gun, or waste money converting a perfectly good defensive revolver (which may be their only defensive handgun for home and hearth) to moon clips. The money can be better spent on speed loaders and if you only own one gun you’d be reluctant to send it off for an unnecessary modification leaving them/their family unprotected.

5. Economics, part dux. The supply and demand situation with the firearms industry is a pretty dry well now and will be for months if not years to come. The prices on the used gun market is pretty outrageous right now but prices for used revolvers are not as bad as used pistols, just imagine what the prices are for used moon clip or 8 round revolvers are right now. I imagine pretty high and probably almost as much as the cost of a new one, but am not sure as I have been deployed for a while and have not seen what the used prices are at this time. How many people are out there right now that is new to the shooting sports that can afford to spend a lot of money on 'specialized' pieces of equipment such as an 8 shot revolver or moon clip revolver vs. can afford a 6 shot revolver or already have one?

6. Reducing the intimidation / envy factor allowing the shooters to focus on the art and technique of shooting to become better shooters and to handle their arms safer and with more confidence, not to mention enjoying themselves enough to come back for additional matches as well as joining the local clubs? A few years ago I spoke to a new revolver shooter at the end of a USPSA match and asked him how he liked it and if he would come back. He told me that he didn't think he would as all he had was his S&W 15 and couldn't afford to buy newer gear to be more competitive, he also made the observation that "it's one thing to be beaten by someone that has better skills and years of experience, but it's something else to be beaten by someone that can afford better equipment that gives them an even bigger edge over skill levels." He also said something else that stuck with me, that being "even if he found that he had some unknown natural ability that he didn't know about and could catch up pretty quickly, skill wise, that the differences in equipment would always hold him back, just because he could not 'compete' financially." This brings up a good point, is the point of the match a competition of skills or an equipment race? I’ll tell you that that is exactly the ‘perception’ of USPSA sport in a lot of people’s minds due to bad personal experiences and / or word of mouth.

7. Question: Who the heck uses a moon clip revolver for defense anyway? Yeah, I know - I know, this is a game, it's a game. Well guess what, the 'gamers' are a very, very, small portion of the shooting community as a whole. The discussion here, and in other parts of this forum have been about growing the revolver division, which is smart and noble, but is really very short sighted, but still is an important first step. The long view should also be taken to also grow the SPORT because if we do not get more shooters / gun owners on our side then you can kiss this 'gamers' sport you love so much goodbye in YOUR lifetime. If you do not believe me then someone has not been keeping up on the news lately and that is sad and inexcusable, especially when you are sitting ‘back in the world’ in air conditioned comfort with the time to notice what is happening around you. If we, that is what my fellow Soldiers, Marines, Air Force and Navy brethren, have the time and desire to read / watch / and research what is going on back home on the political front while deployed over here in the sandbox, then you really have no excuse.

The club that I was shooting with before deploying (IDPA) started holding 3-6 revolver only matches a year, we could do this because we shot 2-3 matches a month depending on if there was a 5th Saturday in the month. Everyone shot only 6 shot revolvers, a couple of the guys did own 8 shot revolvers but did not compete with them as they did not feel that it was fair - talk about men with personal honor. I will tell you that everyone that competed felt that those matches were some of the best the club ever held. The fun and camaraderie were some of the best that I ever seen at a match, bar none, and the competition became much more intense (friendly though) as we realized that it was our skills being tested and not so much the equipment and Buck Rodgers ray guns giving an edge.

I realize that the above will be VERY unpopular with certain people that have a vested interest in keeping the status quo (those that have their egos and appendage sizes invested in their monetary / equipment advantage) and it will be those same people that will 'squawk' the loudest, fall to the ground kicking and screaming, and soiling themselves to ensure that they keep that advantage. They may even threaten to ‘take their ball and go home’ if they cannot keep their advantage. Personally, I’d tell them to not the door hit the on the way out and not to come back until they grew up. From my personal experience, it’s these same self-anointed gaming royals that, for the most part will not lift a finger to work or help out at a match. You know the ones I’m talking about, they show up five minutes before the safety brief, are always ‘smoking and joking’ and ‘cleaning’ their gear between stages instead of helping with resetting the targetry and pasting targets, and are packed up and gone as soon as the last round is fired if not sooner.

I’ve spent my entire adult life in the Army and have been stationed all over the country and have had the opportunity to shoot with many different clubs and shooting organizations, IDPA, TSA, USPSA, etc. and I believe that has afforded me a unique perspective in regards to how clubs are run and the interactions of the members and the interactions of the members with regards to how new shooters / prospective new members are treated. What I have observed is the clubs with the ‘Gamers click’ turn off a lot of shooters and that can be bad for the growth of the sport and the local clubs (revenue), and gun owners as a whole.

I’ve read some older posts stating something along the lines of well we did ‘x’ and the revolver participation numbers are only 5, 10, or 15 shooters out of a total participation of 200 or 300 and people are stumped as what to do and are ready to give up after one half-hearted attempt. Really? After years and years of denigrating (look that one up) the revolver as a relevant defensive and completion tool these same self important individuals just expect revolver participation numbers to suddenly uptick? Any campaign to bring in new revolver shooters or to have current semi-auto pistol shooters to pull out their wheel guns from the back of the safe is going to take not only time but effort to change the shooters perceptions regarding the revolver in completion. An important first step will be to level the playing field.

The choice is really quite simple when you look at the total numbers of 625 moon clipped fed revolvers (a pittance) versus eight shot revolvers (again, a pittance) versus the tens of millions of six shot speed loader fed revolvers. Either continue to cater to the 625 cabal, or the few eight shots crowd, and eventually kill the revolver division or change the revolver division rules so that competitors use existing six shot, speed loader feed revolvers, period. If a person were to look at the equation from a business perspective and the potential for new customers (moon clip vs. speed loader) and new revenue it’s a no brainer. Unfortunately, popularity contests (625) and politics will hold the process hostage and paralyze the decision makers into doing nothing, or worse, have them establishing a ‘blue ribbon’ committee to study the problem for years and coming up with no recommendations.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Grim

[jhgtyre]

For me all arguments pale in comparison to this one:

Standing reload after standing reload is no fun for me. You can go on about stage strategy and the challenge of breaking down the stage being your driving influence all you want but in the end doing a ton of stand reloads is just not fun. Some will argue that in a "properly laid out stage this won't be a problem." Well, we have some really great local matches and unless they are going out of their way to be nice to the addle minded revo guys that show up the stages are not laid out in a pattern that results in anything but a ton of standing reloads. 8 minor, 6 major opens the division up to more guns, more shooters and more fun.

Side note: I have almost twice as many revolvers that hold some number other than 6 shots than I do 6 shot revolvers. At my house the ol' 6 shooters is outnumbered.

-ld

[Cd662]

3. There are a lot of people out there that would like to start taking up the shooting sports for many reasons, chief among them is to get some definite gun handling practice in due to where many people believe the country is heading. Competing would allow them practice and to test out some of their gear, which is cheaper than going to a firearms school. What they don't want to do is spend a lot of money to get into the sport and decide they do not like it.

There is nothing preventing people with speedloaders from competing. Nothing prevents me from taking my 2.5" Model 10 and my carry holster to an Area match and competing with it. I'm sure it would be valuable trigger time. So would saving the money on entry fee and doing drills. So would saving that money and putting it towards a class.

4. Economics. Wake up! The economy sux right now and will for a loooong time. Most 'mortal' people just do not have the disposable income to go out and buy the latest Buck Rodgers ray gun 8 shot revolver or an over inflated S&W 629 moon clip gun, or waste money converting a perfectly good defensive revolver (which may be their only defensive handgun for home and hearth) to moon clips. The money can be better spent on speed loaders and if you only own one gun you’d be reluctant to send it off for an unnecessary modification leaving them/their family unprotected.

If someone is in such a dire situation that they only have one home defense revolver and can't part with it, then I think their potential participation in USPSA isn't really the discussion to be having. Besides:

Conversion to moonclips: ~100 dollars

Moonclips for 38 Special - 8 dollars a piece

Moonclip carriers - About 20 a piece (times 5 at least)

Total: 240 dollars

Decent chamfering job for speedloaders (Useful for a self defense gun): 50+ dollars

Speedloaders: 20 a piece

Speedloader Carriers - About 20 a piece (times 5)

Total: 250 dollars

I don't know if it was intentional but you seem to imply that the moonclip conversion is somehow going to ruin the "perfectly good" defensive revolver. I don't understand how that is physically possible.

5. Economics, part dux. The supply and demand situation with the firearms industry is a pretty dry well now and will be for months if not years to come. The prices on the used gun market is pretty outrageous right now but prices for used revolvers are not as bad as used pistols, just imagine what the prices are for used moon clip or 8 round revolvers are right now. I imagine pretty high and probably almost as much as the cost of a new one, but am not sure as I have been deployed for a while and have not seen what the used prices are at this time. How many people are out there right now that is new to the shooting sports that can afford to spend a lot of money on 'specialized' pieces of equipment such as an 8 shot revolver or moon clip revolver vs. can afford a 6 shot revolver or already have one?

I think we need to address what someone brought up before; there is a difference between participating in USPSA and having a competitive setup. I'm assuming you want speedloader/6 shot guns to be competitive. Yet, even in IDPA where there is a very specific place for 6 shot, 4 inch or shorter barreled guns using speedloaders and shooting a very delicate power factor, revolver participation is STILL low. I just don't buy this argument that it's a gear issue. Doing anything competitively costs money. See next point for continuation...

6. Reducing the intimidation / envy factor allowing the shooters to focus on the art and technique of shooting to become better shooters and to handle their arms safer and with more confidence, not to mention enjoying themselves enough to come back for additional matches as well as joining the local clubs? A few years ago I spoke to a new revolver shooter at the end of a USPSA match and asked him how he liked it and if he would come back. He told me that he didn't think he would as all he had was his S&W 15 and couldn't afford to buy newer gear to be more competitive, he also made the observation that "it's one thing to be beaten by someone that has better skills and years of experience, but it's something else to be beaten by someone that can afford better equipment that gives them an even bigger edge over skill levels." He also said something else that stuck with me, that being "even if he found that he had some unknown natural ability that he didn't know about and could catch up pretty quickly, skill wise, that the differences in equipment would always hold him back, just because he could not 'compete' financially." This brings up a good point, is the point of the match a competition of skills or an equipment race? I’ll tell you that that is exactly the ‘perception’ of USPSA sport in a lot of people’s minds due to bad personal experiences and / or word of mouth.

I don't buy this at all. I know it's a point of intimidation for some newer shooters but if you take Craig Buckland, Cliff Walsh, Josh Lentz, Dave Olhasso (who just shot a Regional ICORE match this past weekend with borrowed gear, without really practicing using speedloaders, and still won Classic by a landslide) or any other high level IDPA, USPSA, or ICORE revolver shooter and give them an out of the box Smith and Wesson Model 10 with a pancake holster and HKS speedloaders, and put them up against a lesser competitor with the latest and greatest gear as you put it, I will put all of my bananas on one of the aforementioned dudes running train on the challengers. The expensive part of the equation isn't the gear directly - it's the cost of training, matches, travel, supplies, classes, etc. I understand that people may have perceptions about being outclassed due to purely financial skills, and obviously it's going to be hard for a broke college kid or someone in a tough part of life to be able to buy the shit they want to. At the same time, if you are shooting at any regular frequency in a recreational atmosphere, then you either aren't poor or really need to prioritize.

I firmly believe in 6 shot revolvers. I don't know if I support 8 minor. If there were masses of folks with Model 10s and 686s with speedloaders clamoring at the gates of Level 1 matches saying "Let me in, I want to compete!" then I would say sure! Let's push for that speedloader category. But USPSA is about numbers, time, hit factor, scores, and participation. Numbers don't lie. There are tons of people that shoot Open division, the most expensive division around, and Open EASILY EASILY outnumbers Revolver in terms of participation. Even if we got a surge of ICORE 8 shot minor shooters, I suspect our numbers would still be pretty weak. And what's the goal here anyway? Have the revolver division recognized as an official division (10+ participants?) at every major USPSA match? 20? 30? X percent of the most popular division?

I think jhg is right. It comes down to being fun. People don't have fun when they don't dig the format or the stages. Revolver is a lot of work right now and shooting is hard enough without the extra stuff in the way.

[Carmoney]

......Dave Olhasso (who just shot a Regional ICORE match this past weekend with borrowed gear, without really practicing using speedloaders, and still won Classic by a landslide).....

ICORE had two Regionals this past weekend, and I can't find results for either one of them anywhere online. (I was trying to see who Olhasso was hiding from. )

[Cd662]

I PMed you.

[Wagonburner]

It seems the momentum is gaining some mass,I have come to the realization there will two divisions major and minor ,they both will be moons and there will be old school and modern participants. That being said I will always set the course of fire when I volunteer at my club to six round ports or stages with opportunity for the scoring deducts to play a part as well.The eight shot guys will be able to utilize their extra rounds to move their hits over to the A zone to avoid the lower point totals.

[Carmoney]

I think it's worth pointing out that whenever you put the issue of Minor-8/Major-6 to a poll, the respondents seem to favor it roughly 2-to-1.

The detractors are louder, but they are distinctly in the minority.

[mrmetalweld57]

I can't help but look at cost factor also. 10000 230 grain MG at 375/cs vs 11250 124-5 grain MG at 370/cs. 5 cases vs less than 3. In 10,000 rounds you save almost enough money to pay for a new 8-shot gun. Cost of bullets may not affect some people, but some it will. Ed

[ChrisC]

Here is some food for thought

If your club only has a few revolver shooters will it matter if they allow 8 shot guns? clubs that also have a strong showing of ICORE members may see some difference. The majority of the level 1's will not see any change.

[Bosshoss]

I can't help but look at cost factor also. 10000 230 grain MG at 375/cs vs 11250 124-5 grain MG at 370/cs. 5 cases vs less than 3. In 10,000 rounds you save almost enough money to pay for a new 8-shot gun. Cost of bullets may not affect some people, but some it will. Ed

You need to also figure in that you can get .45 brass once fired cheaper(probably about 1/3 of the cost)than new .38 short colt brass because you won't find used SC brass anywhere. You do get the brass back with a revolver though and it last forever unless it's stepped on.

Also 100 .45 moonclips for around $40. The 627 will need hearthco moonclips to be competitive(ask the ICORE guys about this) in my experiance. Those will cost you ONLY $7.50 EACH. Wait until a few of those get stepped on and bent.

[pskys2]

I can't help but look at cost factor also. 10000 230 grain MG at 375/cs vs 11250 124-5 grain MG at 370/cs. 5 cases vs less than 3. In 10,000 rounds you save almost enough money to pay for a new 8-shot gun. Cost of bullets may not affect some people, but some it will. Ed

You need to also figure in that you can get .45 brass once fired cheaper(probably about 1/3 of the cost)than new .38 short colt brass because you won't find used SC brass anywhere. You do get the brass back with a revolver though and it last forever unless it's stepped on.

Also 100 .45 moonclips for around $40. The 627 will need hearthco moonclips to be competitive(ask the ICORE guys about this) in my experiance. Those will cost you ONLY $7.50 EACH. Wait until a few of those get stepped on and bent.

From the man himself 50 for $4.75 each, still waaaay over .45 ranch.

But think of the fun we can have getting set up with a new gun!!! One reason I still like USPSA, I can play with so many options.

Edited July 2, 2013 by pskys2

[wheelie]

I think it's worth pointing out that whenever you put the issue of Minor-8/Major-6 to a poll, the respondents seem to favor it roughly 2-to-1.

The detractors are louder, but they are distinctly in the minority.

Leaving 8 Major out of the polls makes sure no one votes for it.

I'm not arguing against 8 Minor. I am arguing FOR more inclusion which logically (to me) includes 8 Major as well. Please supply a good reason to NOT INCLUDE 8 Major.

Good golly! it seems so apparent that allowing more guns in will result in the possibility of more people competing.

[Jaxshooter]

I don't use Hearth Co moonclips on any of my 627s. I have a friend with an EDM machine that makes them for the brass I use. Total cost for 50 is less than $10.00. I have been using the same 38 super brass for 4 or 5 years. With the low power factor and moonclips cost of brass is irrelevant.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Jaxshooter