Grim

Xtreme 158gr FP plated bullet 5gr Win 231 Winchester or Tula or Wolf small pistol primer (whatever I was able to get my hands on over the years, but prefer Winchester) These are shot in a GP100 and not sure what FPS they are traveling but they sure put a smack down on steel.

Bigarm, What sport will you be shooting? IDPA? USPSA? Both? Something you need to be aware of regarding IDPA is that while you can use an 8 shot revolver you can only load 6 round in it.

Wow tom, really? From the comfort of your keyboard you continue with the quips. You strike me as the type that only leaves the comfort and safety of your keyboard to abusing little children, women, invalids, and puppies. Furthermore, who are you or anyone else to say that the TIME TO DEBATE IS OVER, wasn't aware that I was living in Mother Russia. Yes the 8 shot rule is in place and the law of the land, but ever hear of contingency planning? I have competed with 1911s and with revolvers and enjoy both. I cannot say what your passion is regarding the related topic, but mine is because I truly care about the health and growth of not only the revolver division but the sport as a whole. Moving people around within the divisions is NOT the answer, but NEW BLOOD being welcomed into the sport is as it brings numbers (future generations) and finances to the table will ensure the health and growth of the sport. Second and third order effects of this growth is that there are more gun owners that hopefully get involved in Second Amendment issues (protection thereof). Now you (and others that want to dog pile in on me) and I can keep up the tit-for-tat all you want but I would rather have some civil discourse and honest debate or back and fourth, whatever you want to call it, about the subject at hand. If you do not like the questions or subject(s) being put forth you are more than welcome to provide constructive comments or just not reply, especially with the smart jabs and put downs to try to shutdown anyone that does not subscribe to your way of thinking. In other words, cut out the childish attacks and I will stop responding to them. ---- Carmoney, Thank You! --- jhgtyre, Apologies to you and everyone else. I honestly only want to debate and discuss the growth of the revolver division, as I do have a dog in that game, as well as by extension, the growth of the sport. I'm not going to let anyone play the 'political race card game' to shut me down, or anyone else for that matter, by letting them resort to mud slinging. A smart-arsed comment deserves a response, only seems fair to me. Thanks, Steve

Racinready300ex, 1 - Only S&W is producing and the numbers available are pretty low, I still stand by that statement. I do concede your point though, 'enact the rule and other manufactures will build 8 shot revolvers' may be valid and hopefully Ruger and others will step up, but I will not hold my breath. 2 - Costs. A little apples and oranges here in my opinion. I am referring to bringing new shooters into the sport with their existing arms and equipment with little to no additional costs. Eventually some may enjoy themselves so much that they will want to spend the money to compete in another division / more expensive division and that decision will be based on their experience(s) in what could be considered a 'starter division' with 6 shot revolver. If I'm reading your comments correctly, you are basically saying the same thing but referring to current competitors that are already involved in the sport buying or building more expensive setups to compete with. 3 - Correct, very few if any brought them out. The question is You ask how do we fix it and I proposed 6 shot neutral as a way. Also, thanks for the constructive comments. ---- carmoney, PM on the way. --- chrisc & tome, Ouch! You called me troll and threw out the 'mommy' word. Sorry but your going to have to do much worse that that. ------ To the forum members, I still say that it is going to take more than 8 shot to grow the division. A majority of those that have stated they are going to shoot 8 shot are current shooters that are switching from another division. Just read the posts, current shooters are looking for an available 8 shot revo to shoot a match and if you read further / deeper, many of those shooters have stated that they are looking to just try 8 shot. Question is, how many of these shooters will stay with 8 shot after trying it out. Sounds like a zero sum gain, especially if they do switch back. Yes, I understand that 8 shot is here to stay. I also stated my opinion that it is BS and that I did not think that that decision alone would fix the problem. I also went further and offered Courses of Action (COA) that I believe could grow numbers by pulling in new shooters to the sport. If you do not agree fine, that's ok. Instead of name calling (troll, bitching, whining, etc) and acting like pre-teen school girls be constructive and point out what you believe are the flaws to a persons logic or argument. (chris and tom, research Socratic Method / Socratic Debate) Steve

Tut, tut, tut, carmoney. Watch the personal attacks. Easy when you can do it from the safety of a keyboard, isn't it? Maybe learning that I'm busted up from yet another surgery has emboldened a bully gene from within? We are discussing growing the sport and the revolver division in particular, so lets stick to discussion topic(s) while online and leave the muscle flexing in the mirror for late at night, shall we? I believe that these are valid points concerning the growing of the sport: 1) only one reputable manufacturer is producing 8 shot revolvers in competitive calibers, which means very limited in available numbers as we see posts of people trying to find them 2) the additional costs (or initial costs for new shooters to the sport) to get setup for 8 shot revolvers, ie. new gun, moonclips, etc, 3) of the TENS OF MILLIONS of existing revolvers / revolver owners that already have most if not all the equipment to start shooting (they may only need a few more speedloaders and speedloader holders that can be obtained at a comparatively lower cost to begin competing versus buying a new 8 shot setup), 4) analyze and discuss where the participation numbers for 8 shot competitors will come from, which the majority most assuredly will be from existing competitors from other categories, so basically a zero sum gain in overall numbers versus bringing in new competitors to the sport with their currently owned 6 shot setups 5) of the TENS OF MILIONS of existing revolver owners out there, even if only one-one-hundredth or just one-one-thousandths of one percent can be me made interested in coming out to shoot a match then that is true growth And, nope, I'm not an internet troll, I just do not post much. I do find it amusing that that particular card is bandied about like the 'race card' in politics when a 'ruling elite' - either political or a high-post internet warrior - wants to shut down anyone that will not conform to their brand of 'group think'. Sorry, but a high round count post history does not impress - nor intimidate, GASP! - me in the slightest as that is all it is, History. Also, I WILL be back on the range as soon as I can rehab and hopefully I will be able to get back into competitions, but that will depend on how well I recover from the damage that was repaired to be able to hold and shoot a firearm. Be nice, you'll enjoy life more fully Steve

Iroa, I'll spell it out s-l-o-w-l-y since spelling / grammar seems to escape you Regarding - where have the 6 shot speedloader shooters been? As stated in my posts as well as the posts of others ... 6 shot neutral stages. FYSA, I do not shoot only revolvers, I also shoot a Nighthawk GRP, Les Baer TRS and Custom Carry 1911s, as well as an M&P 9. Yes, I only like shooting speedloader revolvers. As a matter of fact I just bought a new 625 JM and I plan to buy up the accessories to shoot Auto Rim with speedloaders at matches with it. Also, in the interest of total disclosure, it has been almost three years since I have shot a match due to military commitments and multiple surgeries, five to date to be exact. Just had my latest surgery a couple of weeks ago and hopefully I can rehab and be able to recover before mid-summer to begin shooting and competing again but time will tell.

The 8 shot rule change was, is, and will continue to be BS, period. All that has been done is to shift participants from one classification to another, be it from one of the revolver or semi-auto classifications. The 'stated' intention was to GROW the sport, most importantly the revolver division, right? From what I've read on various forums is that those that are shooting the 8 shots are actually switching from another category to try it out while those with existing 6 shooters are getting more frustrated. How is this GROWING the revolver division, and by extension, the sport? Of the 'new' participants in the 8 shot category, how many are actually a new shooter to the sport? One-tenth or one-one-hundredth of a percent? To GROW the division you need NEW shooters. Want to attract new shooters? Its really simple - 6 round neutral stages so that 6 shot speedloader revolvers can compete. The arrogance of the BOD is just confounding to me.... 'We want to grow the sport and will ALLOW you to spend hundreds of extra dollars (not to mention the time pulling your hair out trying) to obtain an 8 shot revolver and the associated accessories to get in the game'. There are TENS OF MILLIONS of existing 6 shot revolvers already in the hands of the shooting public versus only THOUSANDS of 8 shot revolvers, simple math, duh. Also, there is the disturbing issue that only one reputable manufacturer (Taurus wouldn't last one year of even moderate match/practice use so do not even suggest it) is producing 8 shot revolvers which, by some strange coincidence, is a major sponsor, hmm. If another manufacturer, say Ruger, was also producing 8 shot revolvers so that there was double the number on the shelves and lowering the prices then I could see that helping some, but that is not the case at this time. Allowing 8 shot without accommodating the 6 shot speedloader community is not even a half step or measure and is doomed to failure (yup, bookmark this so that you can make me eat crow or I can say "I told you so" in a couple of years) . If the BOD wants to kill off revolver division then just man up and kill it and stop the wussy-footing around, man up for Pete's sake.

I like and shoot the GP100 so that is my choice. I've read that the 625 5 inch has been discontinued from S&Ws product line. I believe that it is also not allowed in USPSA, definitely not in IDPA.

TRS (Thunder Ranch Special)

I made a suggestion I think has a chance of increasing participation in Revolver Division:8 shooters scored minor with a >120PF 6 & 7 shooters, moonclip fed, scored major with a >160 PF, scored minor with a >120 to 160 PF 6 & 7 shooters, speedloader fed, scored major with a >120 PF No change is going to be perfect for everyone but maybe we should be asking: "Would it be good for the Division"? Do you have anything to offer that might help increase participation? I'm stubborn and only shoot 6-shot, speedloader fed revolvers so I guess that makes me a little dense as well. Case in point, I'm stuck with a 6-shot revolver until Ruger produces an 8 shot revolver. If, IF, Ruger were to come out with an 8-shot I would still only use speedloaders so go figure. Tom E, I like your idea as it has some merit, but I'm having a difficult time wrapping my head around a sticking point. Can you or anyone else out there help? Eight-shot revolvers are scored minor. Got it. Six shot, both moonclip and speedloader, are scored major. Got it. How is this really any different, in essence, from the current situation, that being that a 6-shot speedloader is competing directly against a 6-shot moonclip? Moonclip revolvers will a majority of the time clean the clock of a speedloader revolver as moonclip reloads are just so much faster and easier due to not only the moonclip but also the size of the .45acp round.

Nice attitude, no wonder there is a problem with attendance numbers of revolver shooters. way to marginalize! Yes, I do shoot revolvers. Got tired / bored with shooting autos and bought a GP100 and enjoyed it. I am not interested in moonclips and have no desire to alter my GP100. I just do not understand this attitude of 'well, if you want to compete you have to spend the money to buy X, Y, Z race gear or just leave'. Not going to grow the division or the sport that way. As I said I shoot with speedloaders only, what I would like to do is COMPETE with / against other speedloader shooters with like equipment. Speedloaders against moonclips, either 6 or 8 round, is not an equal comparison but speedloader vs. speedloader does have the ability to offer parity. Grow revolver, and by extension, the sport. This can be done by 1) Allowing 8-shot moonclips, 2) adding a speedloader division, 3) stop marginalizing revolvers, specifically speedloader fed revolvers, 4) get the word out about the revolver changes to the shooting community as a whole, and 5) be patient and allow time for the revolver divisions to grow. Probably too much to ask from some, but my .02 cents.

So if there is there is open discussion and a possible decision about allowing an 8-shot moonclip division, why not go a little further and allow a 6-shot speedloader division? Its really not that much more of a stretch.

I thought it was stated in previous posts that 6-shot speedloader fed revolvers were dead? With that 'logic' all that is left is the 6 and 8 round moonclip revolvers. It's a pretty neat self-fulfilling prophecy when you think about it. Marginalize a small section of the competing population, abet one with the greatest potential for growth, so that they either switch to a pistol to compete or they walk away.

Speedloaders are obsolete. There just aren't enough categories to cover all the different guns. I wish someone had told me that before I bought all those speedloaders over the last couple of years, I could have saved a ton of cash. Maybe I can make some of it back by selling them as 'collectors items' in a few years.

jhgtyre hit the nail on the head with "Classic Revo - 6 shot guns only. No moon clips. Speed loaders only. No optics (post and notch sites only). No ported or compensated barrels." This is the only way that I see to get NEW shooters with their EXISTING / CURRENTLY owned revolvers to come out and play. A Classic Revolver division would be the cheapest and easiest way to introduce and draw out / introduce new shooters to the sport and to the Revolver division(s) as most revolver owners already have a holster they can use, either an OWB/IWB, and would only have to purchase additional speedloaders and pouches to get started. Over time some if not most of these shooters will update their equipment to be more competitive, maybe even their guns to 625s or 8-shooters which is great. but they have to come out and play first. Does this not make sense?