Which would be likely to further increase participation in Revolver Di

[Nik Habicht]

Here's the thing... the K&L frame guys AREN'T coming out now to begin with. Besides I think most of the K&L frames are likely not moon clip guns anyway. There just isn't an easy answer to this. All I'm saying is that for me, I like the idea of 8 round moon clip guns, specifically my 627, being allowed. Are their better options? Leave it as is?

Leaving it as is is not an appealing option. We have nothing to lose by changing the division.....

The folks with K/L frame guns likely aren't bringing them out because they're not competitive at minor and without moonclips...

Changing divisional scoring to 6 rounds minor only would potentially serve to include them -- at the not inconsiderable risk of totally turning off current competitors.....

Just from a match inclusion perspective -- I'd like Revo to always be available, even if only 1 or 2 people are shooting it at club matches....

Whether to give it a Nationals, should depend solely on whether or not that can be done economically, either as a successful stand-alone event, or as one of several divisions at a combination match....

[Nik Habicht]

As to your last paragraph. I almost agree. However it's a good thing to allow our current "customers" to have more options as well, agree? I don't have all the answers, I don't think anyone does, and I'm sure I haven't figured out all the ramifications.. but I will say this. I personally have shot a fair amount of revolver in IDPA- SSR and ESR with my 686 and 625 respectively. I also own a 627 which has yet to see much use yet. I like my minor loads because it's easy on my elbows... I'd love to see more folks shooting wheel guns. But there aren't many around my area... and part of the fun for me is competing with a bunch of people IN my division. So I don't shoot it. I'm not going to train my ass off to compete with a GM and maybe a couple B shooters using 5" 625s with my 686 speed loader gun. That for sure just won't happen.

OK. I'm happy to allow current customers input -- but we don't have a lot of current customers. So if there's a change to be made, that would bring out hundreds or thousands of new competitors (and that seems unlikely) I might be compelled to disregard current customers....

Would you go up against 625 owners with a moon-clipped 686 if the division was scored minor? I'm assuming for the sake of the question that you don't have access to a 625, but do own a 686 that would need to be cut for moonclips.....

[lugnut]

As to your last paragraph. I almost agree. However it's a good thing to allow our current "customers" to have more options as well, agree? I don't have all the answers, I don't think anyone does, and I'm sure I haven't figured out all the ramifications.. but I will say this. I personally have shot a fair amount of revolver in IDPA- SSR and ESR with my 686 and 625 respectively. I also own a 627 which has yet to see much use yet. I like my minor loads because it's easy on my elbows... I'd love to see more folks shooting wheel guns. But there aren't many around my area... and part of the fun for me is competing with a bunch of people IN my division. So I don't shoot it. I'm not going to train my ass off to compete with a GM and maybe a couple B shooters using 5" 625s with my 686 speed loader gun. That for sure just won't happen.

OK. I'm happy to allow current customers input -- but we don't have a lot of current customers. So if there's a change to be made, that would bring out hundreds or thousands of new competitors (and that seems unlikely) I might be compelled to disregard current customers....

Would you go up against 625 owners with a moon-clipped 686 if the division was scored minor? I'm assuming for the sake of the question that you don't have access to a 625, but do own a 686 that would need to be cut for moonclips.....

I think we are on the same page for the most part... all good. I own a 625, 686, 617 and a 627. Maybe I'm an anal bastid but I don't think I'd want to cut down my 686 for moon clips for USPSA even though that would be pretty cool... my moon clip 686 costs would bring me close to a 627. Plus now I'd have a 686 that is no good for SSR. Yikes... difficult stuff.

Would I compete against a 625 with a moon clipped 686? If I could use short colts I bet the reloads would be damn close for sure. I think I'd be ok with that. But I already have a 627 for moon clips... If we think about it more and more- it gets more and more difficult to decide.

I'm not sure just how much we can improve attendance in revo... but if the current revo guys like the option of a 627 and people like me and maybe you some day are on the fringe of trying it out it's not a bad idea. But leaving the division as is not a good option... I agree, and like you said there is nothing to loose by changing.

Tough decisions for sure....

[smith52]

To me the title of the thread is the question that needs to be answered, not whether or not we should allow eight shot minor/six shot major. To me instead of growing the division we would loose as many as we gain and it would be a wash doing that. The division is stagnant because it is pretty much a one gun division. To be competitive you need a moonclipped revolver that can shoot major loads without beating you to death, you get the S&W 625. I know there are a few folks out there with .40S&W L-frames and some with S&W 610 but the 625 is pretty much the main gun in revo. By changing the rules to allow eight shots between reloads with minor scoring all we have done is change which one firearm the division will shoot. To give the division a chance to grow we need a rule change that will give several different revolvers a chance to be competitive, the revolvers folks have at home in their gun safes already. I understand that moonclipped guns will probably always come out on top but it is much more affordable to have a gun you already own machined for moonclips than it is to buy another gun and I believe is much more likely to happen then buying another gun. I would rather see the rules stay the same then change them and leave revo division a one gun division, there is no growth in that. From what all I have read division growth is what everyone wants, right? That is why I think changing Revolver division to minor scoring only/six shots between reloads would the best chance for growth in the division.

[Jaxshooter]

People spend money on Open, Limited and Production guns. If they have a 625 they can stay with it. If they want 8 shots then buy a 627 and shoot minor. The cost of a 627 is less than buying a frame, barrel and slide for Open or Limited gun. With a little trigger work (can be done at home on the kitchen table) the 627 is competitive out of the box.

[Bill Nesbitt]

There are more 6 shot K & L framed 38 Cal DA revolvers in the world than all others combined.

Any shooting game that ingores that fact and plays to the minority of the minority is a doomed side show relative to revolvers in my opinion.

Craig

USPSA Revolver shooters have been shooting 6 shots for years without complaining too much. They have learned how to break down the stage and plan reloads.

SSR Revolvers can be cut for moon clips and still shoot in IDPA using speed loaders. New IDPA rule 8.2.5.2.9.

It costs $125 to get a cylinder cut for moon clips and all you need to send in is the cylinder. Less cost to ship. Moon clips and loader/unloader is another $135.

The 625 guys can just down load to 125 PF. No additional expense to still be competitive. All the current shooters can still play and not get beat up.

I think cross over shooters is where you could get the most growth. Check the ICORE attendance figures on some of the recent regional matches. Lots of Classic shooters. Your crossover shooters from ICORE are as apt to be Classic as 8 shot minor. How many of the ICORE Limited shooters are 625s at minor and how many are 8 shot?

If all revolvers shoot minor there will not be the need to have a certain gun like it is with 625s now and how it would be the 627 if the 8 shot minor goes through.

Don't some 627s still need cut for moon clips?

[pskys2]

To me the title of the thread is the question that needs to be answered, not whether or not we should allow eight shot minor/six shot major. To me instead of growing the division we would loose as many as we gain and it would be a wash doing that. The division is stagnant because it is pretty much a one gun division. To be competitive you need a moonclipped revolver that can shoot major loads without beating you to death, you get the S&W 625. I know there are a few folks out there with .40S&W L-frames and some with S&W 610 but the 625 is pretty much the main gun in revo. By changing the rules to allow eight shots between reloads with minor scoring all we have done is change which one firearm the division will shoot. To give the division a chance to grow we need a rule change that will give several different revolvers a chance to be competitive, the revolvers folks have at home in their gun safes already. I understand that moonclipped guns will probably always come out on top but it is much more affordable to have a gun you already own machined for moonclips than it is to buy another gun and I believe is much more likely to happen then buying another gun. I would rather see the rules stay the same then change them and leave revo division a one gun division, there is no growth in that. From what all I have read division growth is what everyone wants, right? That is why I think changing Revolver division to minor scoring only/six shots between reloads would the best chance for growth in the division.

Actually virtually every Division has a "Best" Gun, Open/Limited it's the 2011 pattern, Limited 10 it's the 1911/2011, Of course SS is the 1911 (and it's still growing) heck even Production was dominated by Glock for years. All have other guns that compete, and win occasionally, and in Revo you do have others that way, it has become a S&W 45 Division because that is what fit the rules and was the cheapest and had the most accessories.

I don't believe Revo is stagnant due to equipment domination. But the argument is it's stagnant due to round limitations/COF design.

I've had my current piece become obsolete many times, it's almost part of the fun of the game.

So if the argument is correct, the 8 shot would solve the issue and will lead to more participation. Going to minor for all would not, it would still be 6 shot. the 8 shot minor restriction is an olive branch to those who have 45's and gives them a chance to stay competitive. Going to minor for all and allowing 8 shot would destroy any chance. It still may well end up the dominant gun will be the 8 shot minor, that's fine it's happened before and will again, but it still allows the 6 shot major (including .357 mag I might add) to compete.

Edited June 29, 2013 by pskys2

[lugnut]

Don't some 627s still need cut for moon clips?

Hmmm mine came that way but that was a year ago.... not sure what older ones were like.

[smith52]

To me the title of the thread is the question that needs to be answered, not whether or not we should allow eight shot minor/six shot major. To me instead of growing the division we would loose as many as we gain and it would be a wash doing that. The division is stagnant because it is pretty much a one gun division. To be competitive you need a moonclipped revolver that can shoot major loads without beating you to death, you get the S&W 625. I know there are a few folks out there with .40S&W L-frames and some with S&W 610 but the 625 is pretty much the main gun in revo. By changing the rules to allow eight shots between reloads with minor scoring all we have done is change which one firearm the division will shoot. To give the division a chance to grow we need a rule change that will give several different revolvers a chance to be competitive, the revolvers folks have at home in their gun safes already. I understand that moonclipped guns will probably always come out on top but it is much more affordable to have a gun you already own machined for moonclips than it is to buy another gun and I believe is much more likely to happen then buying another gun. I would rather see the rules stay the same then change them and leave revo division a one gun division, there is no growth in that. From what all I have read division growth is what everyone wants, right? That is why I think changing Revolver division to minor scoring only/six shots between reloads would the best chance for growth in the division.

Actually virtually every Division has a "Best" Gun, Open/Limited it's the 2011 pattern, Limited 10 it's the 1911/2011, Of course SS is the 1911 (and it's still growing) heck even Production was dominated by Glock for years. All have other guns that compete, and win occasionally, and in Revo you do have others that way, it has become a S&W 45 Division because that is what fit the rules and was the cheapest and had the most accessories.

I don't believe Revo is stagnant due to equipment domination. But the argument is it's stagnant due to round limitations/COF design.

I've had my current piece become obsolete many times, it's almost part of the fun of the game.

So if the argument is correct, the 8 shot would solve the issue and will lead to more participation. Going to minor for all would not, it would still be 6 shot. the 8 shot minor restriction is an olive branch to those who have 45's and gives them a chance to stay competitive. Going to minor for all and allowing 8 shot would destroy any chance. It still may well end up the dominant gun will be the 8 shot minor, that's fine it's happened before and will again, but it still allows the 6 shot major (including .357 mag I might add) to compete.

When was the last time a USPSA major was won with something other than a S&W 625? If you want to win a 625 is what you shoot.

[Nik Habicht]

People spend money on Open, Limited and Production guns. If they have a 625 they can stay with it. If they want 8 shots then buy a 627 and shoot minor. The cost of a 627 is less than buying a frame, barrel and slide for Open or Limited gun. With a little trigger work (can be done at home on the kitchen table) the 627 is competitive out of the box.

The fact that a 627 costs less than some parts for Limited guns, is kind of a weak argument. Revo isn't drawing the numbers that Limited or any other division is.....

Removing barriers to entry -- and cost is a barrier -- may do more to attract additional competitors, than changing from a one gun division to a different one gun division....

[Nik Habicht]

To me the title of the thread is the question that needs to be answered, not whether or not we should allow eight shot minor/six shot major. To me instead of growing the division we would loose as many as we gain and it would be a wash doing that. The division is stagnant because it is pretty much a one gun division. To be competitive you need a moonclipped revolver that can shoot major loads without beating you to death, you get the S&W 625. I know there are a few folks out there with .40S&W L-frames and some with S&W 610 but the 625 is pretty much the main gun in revo. By changing the rules to allow eight shots between reloads with minor scoring all we have done is change which one firearm the division will shoot. To give the division a chance to grow we need a rule change that will give several different revolvers a chance to be competitive, the revolvers folks have at home in their gun safes already. I understand that moonclipped guns will probably always come out on top but it is much more affordable to have a gun you already own machined for moonclips than it is to buy another gun and I believe is much more likely to happen then buying another gun. I would rather see the rules stay the same then change them and leave revo division a one gun division, there is no growth in that. From what all I have read division growth is what everyone wants, right? That is why I think changing Revolver division to minor scoring only/six shots between reloads would the best chance for growth in the division.

Actually virtually every Division has a "Best" Gun, Open/Limited it's the 2011 pattern, Limited 10 it's the 1911/2011, Of course SS is the 1911 (and it's still growing) heck even Production was dominated by Glock for years. All have other guns that compete, and win occasionally, and in Revo you do have others that way, it has become a S&W 45 Division because that is what fit the rules and was the cheapest and had the most accessories.

I don't believe Revo is stagnant due to equipment domination. But the argument is it's stagnant due to round limitations/COF design.

I've had my current piece become obsolete many times, it's almost part of the fun of the game.

So if the argument is correct, the 8 shot would solve the issue and will lead to more participation. Going to minor for all would not, it would still be 6 shot. the 8 shot minor restriction is an olive branch to those who have 45's and gives them a chance to stay competitive. Going to minor for all and allowing 8 shot would destroy any chance. It still may well end up the dominant gun will be the 8 shot minor, that's fine it's happened before and will again, but it still allows the 6 shot major (including .357 mag I might add) to compete.

Bear in mind that allowing 8 shot minor in Revo, is a different proposal from making the division minor -- if the division goes minor, the round count should remain fixed at 6, so that current 625 owners could change their load, rather than needing to sell their gun...

[Daniele]

When was the last time a USPSA major was won with something other than a S&W 625? If you want to win a 625 is what you shoot.

I don't know of USPSA, but last European Championship was taken by a moonclipped 585 shooting Major.

[pskys2]

Smith52, I don't believe it ever has at USPSA but it's not necessarily the gun but who is shooting it. It wasn't until just 2 years ago that Production was won by anything but a Glock. And you missed the point, in every Division you have a dominant gun, but there are other brands/types/calibers that play, same as Revo.

Nik Habicht I understand your point, mine is the reason being put forth that Revo doesn't grow is not the gun/pf but the round count vs stage design/fun factor. Which staying at 6 of anything isn't going to help. Besides it already is available and except for the MCC, where they recognized Speed Loaders, or Bubber in the past, you just don't see those multitudes of M10's etc. I think one major reason is those who are drawn to this sport like to tinker with things and/or are not the type to pick up whatever is handy and compete. They want an accessorized hog leg, eventually. It's in their nature.

[jeremy kemlo]

I shoot at the at the range where the IRC is held every year. Even at our range most of the ICORE guys will shoot non revolver guns at the uspsa matches. I think it is more fun. At our monthly ICORE matches we let autos shoot the ICORE match in there own category. I started out shooting uspsa. I shot some ICORE matches with my auto gun and liked the difference enough to buy a revolver and start shooting ICORE on a regular bases. I have seen others converted to a wheel gun after shooting ICORE with there autos. Why isn't there more emphasis on getting the multitude of auto shooter in uspsa to come over to ICORE? I would love to see icore grow to be as well attended as uspsa.

[paul788]

If you want to make a change and see what happens, going to all minor scoring allows everyone to keep shooting the same equipment. No new gun and rig, just load development for the major shooters. I've been told that .45acp at minor is so slow you can watch every bullet fly downrange. Simple to change and easy to reverse if the outcome is reduced shooter numbers. I shoot a K-frame using speedloaders. I have used a borrowed 625 and did not enjoy a seven stage match, hands and elbows were telling me this is not fun compared to a .38.

Paul Beck

A49023

[Norther]

I dislike minor scoring. I would definitely leave revo division if I had to develop a minor load for my 625 (or shoot major loads with minor scoring); I shoot SS too and just use the same load for everything. However, I would continue to shoot it as much (little?) as I do against 8 shot minor if I get major. After all, I never really have any competition in revo division anyway.

[smith52]

If you want to make a change and see what happens, going to all minor scoring allows everyone to keep shooting the same equipment. No new gun and rig, just load development for the major shooters. I've been told that .45acp at minor is so slow you can watch every bullet fly downrange. Simple to change and easy to reverse if the outcome is reduced shooter numbers. I shoot a K-frame using speedloaders. I have used a borrowed 625 and did not enjoy a seven stage match, hands and elbows were telling me this is not fun compared to a .38.

Paul Beck

A49023

I could not agree more.

[smith52]

Smith52, I don't believe it ever has at USPSA but it's not necessarily the gun but who is shooting it. It wasn't until just 2 years ago that Production was won by anything but a Glock. And you missed the point, in every Division you have a dominant gun, but there are other brands/types/calibers that play, same as Revo.

Nik Habicht I understand your point, mine is the reason being put forth that Revo doesn't grow is not the gun/pf but the round count vs stage design/fun factor. Which staying at 6 of anything isn't going to help. Besides it already is available and except for the MCC, where they recognized Speed Loaders, or Bubber in the past, you just don't see those multitudes of M10's etc. I think one major reason is those who are drawn to this sport like to tinker with things and/or are not the type to pick up whatever is handy and compete. They want an accessorized hog leg, eventually. It's in their nature.

I did not miss the point. Who else makes a revo chambered in .45acp to compete with the 625? Edited June 30, 2013 by smith52

[Nik Habicht]

Silly Sidenote: Production was first won with a non-Glock 7 years ago -- TGO in Tulsa with an XD......

[Bill H]

Everyone is talking about getting outside shooters in by allowing 8 shot revolvers or scoring everything minor. Have you considered how many regular shooters you may lose by this. I my area we have very few hardcore revo shooters but we all like to bring them out for special Revo friendly matches. I am not so sure many want to spend a couple thousand dollars to have another low use toy. Buying a 627 and all the equipment you need to convert from a 625 isn't cheap and I feel a lot would rather spend that money on other type guns, ammo or accesories. Just my thoughts.

[pskys2]

Smith52, I don't believe it ever has at USPSA but it's not necessarily the gun but who is shooting it. It wasn't until just 2 years ago that Production was won by anything but a Glock. And you missed the point, in every Division you have a dominant gun, but there are other brands/types/calibers that play, same as Revo.

Nik Habicht I understand your point, mine is the reason being put forth that Revo doesn't grow is not the gun/pf but the round count vs stage design/fun factor. Which staying at 6 of anything isn't going to help. Besides it already is available and except for the MCC, where they recognized Speed Loaders, or Bubber in the past, you just don't see those multitudes of M10's etc. I think one major reason is those who are drawn to this sport like to tinker with things and/or are not the type to pick up whatever is handy and compete. They want an accessorized hog leg, eventually. It's in their nature.

I did not miss the point. Who else makes a revo chambered in .45acp to compete with the 625?

Who says it has to be a .45? I made M with a M29. One guy has been shooting a Ruger Alaskan. .357 is a viable, but abusive, option for major and many are available. I agree though that the .45 S&W is the easiest to use and set up and one of the reasons it's so dominant.

[pskys2]

Silly Sidenote: Production was first won with a non-Glock 7 years ago -- TGO in Tulsa with an XD......

Kind of almost proves my point, TGO sponsored by Springfield was able to do it. But Sevigny owned the Division for years and Glock was, like the 45 S&W, so easy to set up that it was the odds on favorite in general.

[Nik Habicht]

Well, yeah -- in the early years of the division the Glock was dominant. It was largely dominant not because the rules favored it, but because it had few competitors in the "striker fired action with plenty of aftermarket parts available" category. Sevigny's overwhelming performance in the division didn't exactly hurt....

Now, more than a decade after the first Production Nats, there are viable alternatives, from the XD, to the M&P, to the CZ -- all guns around which little cottage industries have sprung up.....

Change Revolver to 6 shot minor scoring only, and you open the division to a bunch of other guns. Change it to 6 major/8 minor, and you make it a two gun division, with both of those guns being on the expensive side -- closer to a Limited gun than an off the shelf Glock....

[bdpaz]

Well, yeah -- in the early years of the division the Glock was dominant. It was largely dominant not because the rules favored it, but because it had few competitors in the "striker fired action with plenty of aftermarket parts available" category. Sevigny's overwhelming performance in the division didn't exactly hurt....

Now, more than a decade after the first Production Nats, there are viable alternatives, from the XD, to the M&P, to the CZ -- all guns around which little cottage industries have sprung up.....

Change Revolver to 6 shot minor scoring only, and you open the division to a bunch of other guns. Change it to 6 major/8 minor, and you make it a two gun division, with both of those guns being on the expensive side -- closer to a Limited gun than an off the shelf Glock....

A "bunch of other guns" that still won't be fun to shoot in an 8 round friendly USPSA match.

Owning a revolver does not mean looking to shoot it competitively - or at all. I have not come across anyone with K or L frame looking to shoot USPSA. I have seen people from the public range pass by an ICORE match and mention that they own a revolver, but it wasn't what they were shooting that day. On the other hand, I do know people (including myself) who do not shoot USPSA Revo now but would if 8 shot was allowed.

Nothing is going to make Revolver participation rival the other divisions, but allowing 8 shot guns will remove the current 6 shot mental gymnastics barrier and bring it more in line with the other divisions. Revolver Division will not work as a low cost entry in to USPSA. To make it survive and grow we must make it attractive to the competitive shooter, either from within USPA or from other disciplines, looking for something different or a way to shoot more often. Opening it to 8 shot guns (ideally allowing Major without the .40 cal minimum!!!) will do that.

[Nik Habicht]

Opening it to 8 shot guns (ideally allowing Major without the .40 cal minimum!!!) will do that.

So, are you in favor of Major 6/Minor 8, or do you want to see the division go to 8 rounds while allowing major simply based on chrono?