Grim

Xtreme 158gr FP plated bullet 5gr Win 231 Winchester or Tula or Wolf small pistol primer (whatever I was able to get my hands on over the years, but prefer Winchester) These are shot in a GP100 and not sure what FPS they are traveling but they sure put a smack down on steel.

Bigarm, What sport will you be shooting? IDPA? USPSA? Both? Something you need to be aware of regarding IDPA is that while you can use an 8 shot revolver you can only load 6 round in it.

Wow tom, really? From the comfort of your keyboard you continue with the quips. You strike me as the type that only leaves the comfort and safety of your keyboard to abusing little children, women, invalids, and puppies. Furthermore, who are you or anyone else to say that the TIME TO DEBATE IS OVER, wasn't aware that I was living in Mother Russia. Yes the 8 shot rule is in place and the law of the land, but ever hear of contingency planning? I have competed with 1911s and with revolvers and enjoy both. I cannot say what your passion is regarding the related topic, but mine is because I truly care about the health and growth of not only the revolver division but the sport as a whole. Moving people around within the divisions is NOT the answer, but NEW BLOOD being welcomed into the sport is as it brings numbers (future generations) and finances to the table will ensure the health and growth of the sport. Second and third order effects of this growth is that there are more gun owners that hopefully get involved in Second Amendment issues (protection thereof). Now you (and others that want to dog pile in on me) and I can keep up the tit-for-tat all you want but I would rather have some civil discourse and honest debate or back and fourth, whatever you want to call it, about the subject at hand. If you do not like the questions or subject(s) being put forth you are more than welcome to provide constructive comments or just not reply, especially with the smart jabs and put downs to try to shutdown anyone that does not subscribe to your way of thinking. In other words, cut out the childish attacks and I will stop responding to them. ---- Carmoney, Thank You! --- jhgtyre, Apologies to you and everyone else. I honestly only want to debate and discuss the growth of the revolver division, as I do have a dog in that game, as well as by extension, the growth of the sport. I'm not going to let anyone play the 'political race card game' to shut me down, or anyone else for that matter, by letting them resort to mud slinging. A smart-arsed comment deserves a response, only seems fair to me. Thanks, Steve

Racinready300ex, 1 - Only S&W is producing and the numbers available are pretty low, I still stand by that statement. I do concede your point though, 'enact the rule and other manufactures will build 8 shot revolvers' may be valid and hopefully Ruger and others will step up, but I will not hold my breath. 2 - Costs. A little apples and oranges here in my opinion. I am referring to bringing new shooters into the sport with their existing arms and equipment with little to no additional costs. Eventually some may enjoy themselves so much that they will want to spend the money to compete in another division / more expensive division and that decision will be based on their experience(s) in what could be considered a 'starter division' with 6 shot revolver. If I'm reading your comments correctly, you are basically saying the same thing but referring to current competitors that are already involved in the sport buying or building more expensive setups to compete with. 3 - Correct, very few if any brought them out. The question is You ask how do we fix it and I proposed 6 shot neutral as a way. Also, thanks for the constructive comments. ---- carmoney, PM on the way. --- chrisc & tome, Ouch! You called me troll and threw out the 'mommy' word. Sorry but your going to have to do much worse that that. ------ To the forum members, I still say that it is going to take more than 8 shot to grow the division. A majority of those that have stated they are going to shoot 8 shot are current shooters that are switching from another division. Just read the posts, current shooters are looking for an available 8 shot revo to shoot a match and if you read further / deeper, many of those shooters have stated that they are looking to just try 8 shot. Question is, how many of these shooters will stay with 8 shot after trying it out. Sounds like a zero sum gain, especially if they do switch back. Yes, I understand that 8 shot is here to stay. I also stated my opinion that it is BS and that I did not think that that decision alone would fix the problem. I also went further and offered Courses of Action (COA) that I believe could grow numbers by pulling in new shooters to the sport. If you do not agree fine, that's ok. Instead of name calling (troll, bitching, whining, etc) and acting like pre-teen school girls be constructive and point out what you believe are the flaws to a persons logic or argument. (chris and tom, research Socratic Method / Socratic Debate) Steve

Tut, tut, tut, carmoney. Watch the personal attacks. Easy when you can do it from the safety of a keyboard, isn't it? Maybe learning that I'm busted up from yet another surgery has emboldened a bully gene from within? We are discussing growing the sport and the revolver division in particular, so lets stick to discussion topic(s) while online and leave the muscle flexing in the mirror for late at night, shall we? I believe that these are valid points concerning the growing of the sport: 1) only one reputable manufacturer is producing 8 shot revolvers in competitive calibers, which means very limited in available numbers as we see posts of people trying to find them 2) the additional costs (or initial costs for new shooters to the sport) to get setup for 8 shot revolvers, ie. new gun, moonclips, etc, 3) of the TENS OF MILLIONS of existing revolvers / revolver owners that already have most if not all the equipment to start shooting (they may only need a few more speedloaders and speedloader holders that can be obtained at a comparatively lower cost to begin competing versus buying a new 8 shot setup), 4) analyze and discuss where the participation numbers for 8 shot competitors will come from, which the majority most assuredly will be from existing competitors from other categories, so basically a zero sum gain in overall numbers versus bringing in new competitors to the sport with their currently owned 6 shot setups 5) of the TENS OF MILIONS of existing revolver owners out there, even if only one-one-hundredth or just one-one-thousandths of one percent can be me made interested in coming out to shoot a match then that is true growth And, nope, I'm not an internet troll, I just do not post much. I do find it amusing that that particular card is bandied about like the 'race card' in politics when a 'ruling elite' - either political or a high-post internet warrior - wants to shut down anyone that will not conform to their brand of 'group think'. Sorry, but a high round count post history does not impress - nor intimidate, GASP! - me in the slightest as that is all it is, History. Also, I WILL be back on the range as soon as I can rehab and hopefully I will be able to get back into competitions, but that will depend on how well I recover from the damage that was repaired to be able to hold and shoot a firearm. Be nice, you'll enjoy life more fully Steve

Iroa, I'll spell it out s-l-o-w-l-y since spelling / grammar seems to escape you Regarding - where have the 6 shot speedloader shooters been? As stated in my posts as well as the posts of others ... 6 shot neutral stages. FYSA, I do not shoot only revolvers, I also shoot a Nighthawk GRP, Les Baer TRS and Custom Carry 1911s, as well as an M&P 9. Yes, I only like shooting speedloader revolvers. As a matter of fact I just bought a new 625 JM and I plan to buy up the accessories to shoot Auto Rim with speedloaders at matches with it. Also, in the interest of total disclosure, it has been almost three years since I have shot a match due to military commitments and multiple surgeries, five to date to be exact. Just had my latest surgery a couple of weeks ago and hopefully I can rehab and be able to recover before mid-summer to begin shooting and competing again but time will tell.

The 8 shot rule change was, is, and will continue to be BS, period. All that has been done is to shift participants from one classification to another, be it from one of the revolver or semi-auto classifications. The 'stated' intention was to GROW the sport, most importantly the revolver division, right? From what I've read on various forums is that those that are shooting the 8 shots are actually switching from another category to try it out while those with existing 6 shooters are getting more frustrated. How is this GROWING the revolver division, and by extension, the sport? Of the 'new' participants in the 8 shot category, how many are actually a new shooter to the sport? One-tenth or one-one-hundredth of a percent? To GROW the division you need NEW shooters. Want to attract new shooters? Its really simple - 6 round neutral stages so that 6 shot speedloader revolvers can compete. The arrogance of the BOD is just confounding to me.... 'We want to grow the sport and will ALLOW you to spend hundreds of extra dollars (not to mention the time pulling your hair out trying) to obtain an 8 shot revolver and the associated accessories to get in the game'. There are TENS OF MILLIONS of existing 6 shot revolvers already in the hands of the shooting public versus only THOUSANDS of 8 shot revolvers, simple math, duh. Also, there is the disturbing issue that only one reputable manufacturer (Taurus wouldn't last one year of even moderate match/practice use so do not even suggest it) is producing 8 shot revolvers which, by some strange coincidence, is a major sponsor, hmm. If another manufacturer, say Ruger, was also producing 8 shot revolvers so that there was double the number on the shelves and lowering the prices then I could see that helping some, but that is not the case at this time. Allowing 8 shot without accommodating the 6 shot speedloader community is not even a half step or measure and is doomed to failure (yup, bookmark this so that you can make me eat crow or I can say "I told you so" in a couple of years) . If the BOD wants to kill off revolver division then just man up and kill it and stop the wussy-footing around, man up for Pete's sake.

I like and shoot the GP100 so that is my choice. I've read that the 625 5 inch has been discontinued from S&Ws product line. I believe that it is also not allowed in USPSA, definitely not in IDPA.

TRS (Thunder Ranch Special)

I made a suggestion I think has a chance of increasing participation in Revolver Division:8 shooters scored minor with a >120PF 6 & 7 shooters, moonclip fed, scored major with a >160 PF, scored minor with a >120 to 160 PF 6 & 7 shooters, speedloader fed, scored major with a >120 PF No change is going to be perfect for everyone but maybe we should be asking: "Would it be good for the Division"? Do you have anything to offer that might help increase participation? I'm stubborn and only shoot 6-shot, speedloader fed revolvers so I guess that makes me a little dense as well. Case in point, I'm stuck with a 6-shot revolver until Ruger produces an 8 shot revolver. If, IF, Ruger were to come out with an 8-shot I would still only use speedloaders so go figure. Tom E, I like your idea as it has some merit, but I'm having a difficult time wrapping my head around a sticking point. Can you or anyone else out there help? Eight-shot revolvers are scored minor. Got it. Six shot, both moonclip and speedloader, are scored major. Got it. How is this really any different, in essence, from the current situation, that being that a 6-shot speedloader is competing directly against a 6-shot moonclip? Moonclip revolvers will a majority of the time clean the clock of a speedloader revolver as moonclip reloads are just so much faster and easier due to not only the moonclip but also the size of the .45acp round.

Nice attitude, no wonder there is a problem with attendance numbers of revolver shooters. way to marginalize! Yes, I do shoot revolvers. Got tired / bored with shooting autos and bought a GP100 and enjoyed it. I am not interested in moonclips and have no desire to alter my GP100. I just do not understand this attitude of 'well, if you want to compete you have to spend the money to buy X, Y, Z race gear or just leave'. Not going to grow the division or the sport that way. As I said I shoot with speedloaders only, what I would like to do is COMPETE with / against other speedloader shooters with like equipment. Speedloaders against moonclips, either 6 or 8 round, is not an equal comparison but speedloader vs. speedloader does have the ability to offer parity. Grow revolver, and by extension, the sport. This can be done by 1) Allowing 8-shot moonclips, 2) adding a speedloader division, 3) stop marginalizing revolvers, specifically speedloader fed revolvers, 4) get the word out about the revolver changes to the shooting community as a whole, and 5) be patient and allow time for the revolver divisions to grow. Probably too much to ask from some, but my .02 cents.

So if there is there is open discussion and a possible decision about allowing an 8-shot moonclip division, why not go a little further and allow a 6-shot speedloader division? Its really not that much more of a stretch.

I thought it was stated in previous posts that 6-shot speedloader fed revolvers were dead? With that 'logic' all that is left is the 6 and 8 round moonclip revolvers. It's a pretty neat self-fulfilling prophecy when you think about it. Marginalize a small section of the competing population, abet one with the greatest potential for growth, so that they either switch to a pistol to compete or they walk away.

Speedloaders are obsolete. There just aren't enough categories to cover all the different guns. I wish someone had told me that before I bought all those speedloaders over the last couple of years, I could have saved a ton of cash. Maybe I can make some of it back by selling them as 'collectors items' in a few years.

jhgtyre hit the nail on the head with "Classic Revo - 6 shot guns only. No moon clips. Speed loaders only. No optics (post and notch sites only). No ported or compensated barrels." This is the only way that I see to get NEW shooters with their EXISTING / CURRENTLY owned revolvers to come out and play. A Classic Revolver division would be the cheapest and easiest way to introduce and draw out / introduce new shooters to the sport and to the Revolver division(s) as most revolver owners already have a holster they can use, either an OWB/IWB, and would only have to purchase additional speedloaders and pouches to get started. Over time some if not most of these shooters will update their equipment to be more competitive, maybe even their guns to 625s or 8-shooters which is great. but they have to come out and play first. Does this not make sense?

So .... we're more concerned with the inconvenience of updating the scoring program versus brining more revolver shooter into the fold?

I agree. If you are going to split up the pool of available revo shooters you should do it right. Open Revo - No limit on capacity or shots per position. Optics and porting allowed. This lets those pesky Taurus 8 shot guns in as well as the S&W Pro and Performance center guns. Limited Revo - Use current rules. Classic Revo - 6 shot guns only. No moon clips. Speed loaders only. No optics (post and notch sites only). No ported or compensated barrels. Major/minor determined by power factor in all divisions. All that aside. I am still quite content with 8 minor/6 major as had previously been proposed. -ld That is a great idea, I like it!

This is completely untrue. You can shoot production with what you most likely already own. With all due respect this is a terrible way to represent the sport. I realize this is the Internet but I don't think it is entirely required to be such a diva about a small PROPOSED change. Things change, technology improves. I don't expect a new group of people to start shooting revolvers until glock starts making one. Apples and oranges dude, we are talking revolvers here. The prices below is an approximation of the gear that a shooter would have to buy just to have some equipment 'parity' with and 8 round revolver. Also note that the equipment that a 6 round revolver owner currently has (speed loaders or moon clips, holders) will not work with the S&W 627. S&W 627 $1249 to $969 (depends on model) 20 moon clips $45 $45 CR Speed holster $179 $179 Speed-e-rack $115 $115 Belt $55 $55 ---------------------------- $1643 to $1363 My statement was in the ball park (lower end) with the above figures. The price for the ancillary equipment could go up or down depending on what the shooter wanted and the price for the 627 is probably higher due to the current state of the panic buying and continued shortages. Shooting my single stack Nighthawk GRP or Les Baer Custom Carry or one of my Thunder Ranch Specials I agree it is "a small PROPOSED change", but also as a revolver shooter it is a BIG deal as the change is to "8 minor and 6 major". This change, as I understand it, would lump the 6 minor and 8 minor (.38/.357) into the same category for scoring which quite frankly sux. As for being a 'diva' that's your opinion princess buttercup. I call it voicing my opinion as I've earned that right with over 20 years and multiple trips to the sandbox putting it on the line for this country. I take this personally as I have 'rediscovered the joys of shooting revolvers' and have been shooting in completion with them since 2010, IMHO this is a bad idea as it will cause more problems than it solves and I am concerned that the revolver division will be hurt in the long run. If the rule does go through as is the 6 shooters, especially 6 shot minor, will be at too much of a disadvantage, especially with no 627s on the market to buy. I myself will not buy an 8 shot revolver until Ruger produces such a beast as I do not like the "Hilary Hole" S&W revolvers or Taurus as a whole. If this goes through I, my two boys (and my $) will vote with our feet and just shoot IDPA when I redeploy next year.

COF, Same to you, Brother in Arms. Number of revolver shooters at the USPSA club - between 2-4 I believe. I know of others that would bring their revolvers out if the stages were more revolver friendly though. Number of revolver shooters at the IDPA club - 1-2 at regular matches. At our revolver only matches that we held 3-5 times a year there were 12-20 participants. As for using moon clips, no, don't like them and will not use them. No matter the format (IDPA, TSA, USPSA) I train / compete like I would fight - with duty gear and or concealed carry equipment. Guess almost 20 years of active duty and 8 years of Reserve/National Guard service has drilled that into me. My boys will shoot / compete the same way as long as I am footing the bills, when they turn 21 and legally take possession of their revolvers they can modify them and their gear all they want as by that time they will have several years to figure out the fundamentals and decide their own path forward. As for owning a Taurus, not going to happen in a million years. I've had too many friends and fellow Soldiers that went through the 'train wreck' that is Taurus' customer service to want to subject myself to that pain and misery. Yes, I realize that it is going to take a couple-a-three years for the boys to get their skill levels up, etc. but I was also referring to new revolver shooters coming to the sport. If they are using a 6 shot revolver and are directly competing against someone not only with an 8 shot revolver but all the wiz-bang completion gear - belt, ghost type holster, moon clips and post holders, etc, it will be quite daunting and discouraging. For someone that is just starting out and is unsure / just trying out the sport I guarantee you that many will be turned off when they discover that they have to spend $1500-$2000 plus dollars just to be halfway competitive. With the economy getting worse and inflation about to take off disposable income will be an issue for a lot of people. I just spoke to a group of guys that I work with (Army, Marines, Air Force) at the chow hall at lunch today and asked them if they would be willing to spend that kind of money to start out in a sport and the answer was a resounding "hell no"! They also said that they would not compete in a sport that handicapped the competitors like what USPSA is proposing (6 shot competing against 8 shot) and felt that it was an equipment race for supremacy versus a test of skills. The best way ahead to get more revolver shooters, IMHO, is to 1) change the rules to 6 round neutral arrays (the high cap crowd will pitch a fit at this) and 2) have revolver split into the subcategories of 6 round speed loader, 6 round moon clip, and 8 round moon clip so that each is not competing directly against each other. There is a third option, which is to allow 8 minor and kill off the revolver division.

Hmmm, another accusation that the BOD is on the take. Lost count of how many unfounded and complete BS accusations that is this year. No wonder most of the AD elections are uncontested. I'm just shocked since normally at the BOD meeting we sit around and split up our bribes from the previous six months. Heck half the meeting is just spent rolling around on the floor in cash looking like Scrooge McDuck. If you think there is a manufacturer out there that cares enough about USPSA to bribe us, please let me know, we should at least talk to them about sponsoring Nationals. Until then take off the tinfoil hat. Sorry, no tinfoil hat as I'm still wearing my Kevlar helmet and bush hat here in the sand box. That last comment was sarcasm, apologies as it seems it did not come out that way. "Hmmm, another accusation that the BOD is on the take. Lost count of how many unfounded and complete BS accusations that is this year. No wonder most of the AD elections are uncontested. I'm just shocked since normally at the BOD meeting we sit around and split up our bribes from the previous six months. Heck half the meeting is just spent rolling around on the floor in cash looking like Scrooge McDuck." Ye ole bard Shakespeare once said something to the effect of 'he (the lady) doth protest too much, methinks." I'll spell that one out, S-A-R-C-A-S-M. I still say that this is a bad idea / band aid that does not address the root problem, that of getting more NEW revolver shooters involved in the sport. Now when I redeploy next year I'm getting my two boys GP100 revolvers as they want to start shooting in competitions on the weekends with me, and yes they want revolvers versus semi-autos (could have saved a butt load on the two Les Baer TRS pistols I already bought). IPDA matches are a give in as that is what I shoot the most competition wise but before I deployed I started shooting USPSA to get more competition time in and to try something different. With this new rule that will have a 6 shot minor revolver going head to head with an 8 shot revolver on 8 round neutral stages that is just pure deck stacking BS. Why would I want to have my boys start out in competition with the deck so stack against them, especially as new shooters? Using the same logic, why would a club want to have new shooters with 6 shot revolvers show up just to have those same new shooters to the club to become alienated by having them compete against 8 shot revolvers? Your down three shooters (and the money they would bring) for 2014 now already.

I think I fall into this category. Running into 8 shot arrays and losing to D class revolver shooters will get old pretty quick. I know revolver division has problems and I don't claim to have the solutions, but I shot a match today with 43 shooters, 4 of which were revolver shooters. Our club is growing steady in revolver shooters by word of mouth. I would hate to think the ONLY way to save revolver division would be restructure it where only one manufacturer and one model could be truly competitive. I think I would prefer to shoot my 610 in production or shift over to production. I am curious to see how the vote goes. If it passes they should also change the name of the division to, "S&W 627 38SC w/ Starline brass and Hearthco clips or just having fun" - its a bit wordy but I think the intent is there.Lee Mitch, I agree with everything you said above. By allowing 8 shot minor it will devastate 6 shot major and kill the 6 shot minor class, IMHO. IF there were more manufacturers (more than two) out there producing 8 shot revolvers and IF there was more supporting industry producing the gear (speed loaders and holders, etc) it could have a better chance of success but I believe the better option would have been to change the rules / stage design to better accommodate the 6 shot revolvers instead of waving the magic wand and 'poof' 8 shot revolver fixes everything.

This is way off base and the only real thing that this is about is change to try and entice, promote and to get more revolver shooters out there. If it doesn't work it reverts back to the way it is now in 2 years. I doubt if S&W would bribe the BOD to maybe sell 100 to 300 new revolvers. I think they have better things to do. I want to thank you for your military duty as that is one of the reasons we get to play games such as these and get to comment on forums. I do hope that when you are done with your deployment you do give revolver a chance. Again thanks to all former, present and future Veterans and happy 4th of July. Thanks, and I do shoot and compete with a Ruger GP100 in IDPA and some USPSA matches. Ruger does not produce an 8 shot revolver so I'm not interested and I will not own a S&W with that butt ugly 'Hillary Hole' in the side of it and will never touch another Taurus after all the trouble that I have seen others have with the company. It is my opinion that the BOD should have looked more at the rules and stage design versus adding another contentious variable to the equation, that being adding an 8 shot revolver to the mix. Again, how many millions of existing 6 shot revolvers are there out there versus the pittance of 8 shot revolvers? It would be smarter to try to attract those 6 shot numbers, especially as we could use all the new shooters we can get, instead of pandering to a minority of 8 shot revolver owners or self interest (how many BOD members will now pull out their own 8 shot revolver to compete?). Yes I sound a little ticked off, as should more people because instead of trying to attract NEW shooters and grow numbers and the sport, this new rule / category will really only cater to a very few existing shooters and MAY bring a few more new shooters with 8 shot revolvers but my bet is on eventually driving away most of the existing numbers of current 6 shot competitors - either leaving USPSA altogether or just competing with a semi in the future. A consideration that I do not think the BOD took into account is the existing backlog of all the current manufacturers which I just read is between 1 to 2 MILLION orders right now and you can bet the bank that those same manufacturers are going to concentrate on their semi-auto pistols and rifles (especially if they produce any AR models). So how many new 8 shot revolvers does anyone expect to be produced over the next two-plus years by these manufacturers? Not many I bet. As for competing with a revolver when I redeploy, yes I will, and so will my two boys as they will be old enough and big enough to start competing and both of them want Ruger GP100 revolvers as their first handguns. Hopefully I can get my hands on two new ones when I redeploy, again supply is tight with existing backorders, I've already got all the other gear they will need to start shooting / competing with a revolver. This new rule / category is, in my opinion, ill conceived and not well thought out and I predict that it may do more damage than good. As a matter of fact it already has, when I redeploy my two sons and I will be spending our money with IDPA and forget about USPSA altogether.

So much for shooting USPSA revolver when I return from deployment. You guys are going to kill the revolver division, maybe that is what you want? I just don't understand it, there is only ONE manufacturer producing only ONE model of revolver that carries 8 rounds. It would be different if say, Ruger or another manufacturer, would also produce an 8 shot model but that is not the case. Maybe a certain manufacturer has bought off the BOD?

A seperate 6 shot, speed loader division would go a long way so that you are not competing against the moom clipped crowd.

Want to get more revolver shooters out to the matches? Easy, get rid of the moon clip and 8 round revolver divisions and just allow six shot, speed loader feed revolvers. Gasp! Blasphemy, heresy! The 600 pound gorilla in the room, and we all know it is the 625 revolvers, which by the way, there are not that many of them out there AND they are pretty expensive especially when compared to a Glock, M&P, etc. Now I want you to consider several things that I will list below as well as the fact that the discussion here is to 'grow the sport' as well as add revenue for the clubs (these will be items 1 and 2). 3. There are a lot of people out there that would like to start taking up the shooting sports for many reasons, chief among them is to get some definite gun handling practice in due to where many people believe the country is heading. Competing would allow them practice and to test out some of their gear, which is cheaper than going to a firearms school. What they don't want to do is spend a lot of money to get into the sport and decide they do not like it. 4. Economics. Wake up! The economy sux right now and will for a loooong time. Most 'mortal' people just do not have the disposable income to go out and buy the latest Buck Rodgers ray gun 8 shot revolver or an over inflated S&W 629 moon clip gun, or waste money converting a perfectly good defensive revolver (which may be their only defensive handgun for home and hearth) to moon clips. The money can be better spent on speed loaders and if you only own one gun you’d be reluctant to send it off for an unnecessary modification leaving them/their family unprotected. 5. Economics, part dux. The supply and demand situation with the firearms industry is a pretty dry well now and will be for months if not years to come. The prices on the used gun market is pretty outrageous right now but prices for used revolvers are not as bad as used pistols, just imagine what the prices are for used moon clip or 8 round revolvers are right now. I imagine pretty high and probably almost as much as the cost of a new one, but am not sure as I have been deployed for a while and have not seen what the used prices are at this time. How many people are out there right now that is new to the shooting sports that can afford to spend a lot of money on 'specialized' pieces of equipment such as an 8 shot revolver or moon clip revolver vs. can afford a 6 shot revolver or already have one? 6. Reducing the intimidation / envy factor allowing the shooters to focus on the art and technique of shooting to become better shooters and to handle their arms safer and with more confidence, not to mention enjoying themselves enough to come back for additional matches as well as joining the local clubs? A few years ago I spoke to a new revolver shooter at the end of a USPSA match and asked him how he liked it and if he would come back. He told me that he didn't think he would as all he had was his S&W 15 and couldn't afford to buy newer gear to be more competitive, he also made the observation that "it's one thing to be beaten by someone that has better skills and years of experience, but it's something else to be beaten by someone that can afford better equipment that gives them an even bigger edge over skill levels." He also said something else that stuck with me, that being "even if he found that he had some unknown natural ability that he didn't know about and could catch up pretty quickly, skill wise, that the differences in equipment would always hold him back, just because he could not 'compete' financially." This brings up a good point, is the point of the match a competition of skills or an equipment race? I’ll tell you that that is exactly the ‘perception’ of USPSA sport in a lot of people’s minds due to bad personal experiences and / or word of mouth. 7. Question: Who the heck uses a moon clip revolver for defense anyway? Yeah, I know - I know, this is a game, it's a game. Well guess what, the 'gamers' are a very, very, small portion of the shooting community as a whole. The discussion here, and in other parts of this forum have been about growing the revolver division, which is smart and noble, but is really very short sighted, but still is an important first step. The long view should also be taken to also grow the SPORT because if we do not get more shooters / gun owners on our side then you can kiss this 'gamers' sport you love so much goodbye in YOUR lifetime. If you do not believe me then someone has not been keeping up on the news lately and that is sad and inexcusable, especially when you are sitting ‘back in the world’ in air conditioned comfort with the time to notice what is happening around you. If we, that is what my fellow Soldiers, Marines, Air Force and Navy brethren, have the time and desire to read / watch / and research what is going on back home on the political front while deployed over here in the sandbox, then you really have no excuse. The club that I was shooting with before deploying (IDPA) started holding 3-6 revolver only matches a year, we could do this because we shot 2-3 matches a month depending on if there was a 5th Saturday in the month. Everyone shot only 6 shot revolvers, a couple of the guys did own 8 shot revolvers but did not compete with them as they did not feel that it was fair - talk about men with personal honor. I will tell you that everyone that competed felt that those matches were some of the best the club ever held. The fun and camaraderie were some of the best that I ever seen at a match, bar none, and the competition became much more intense (friendly though) as we realized that it was our skills being tested and not so much the equipment and Buck Rodgers ray guns giving an edge. I realize that the above will be VERY unpopular with certain people that have a vested interest in keeping the status quo (those that have their egos and appendage sizes invested in their monetary / equipment advantage) and it will be those same people that will 'squawk' the loudest, fall to the ground kicking and screaming, and soiling themselves to ensure that they keep that advantage. They may even threaten to ‘take their ball and go home’ if they cannot keep their advantage. Personally, I’d tell them to not the door hit the on the way out and not to come back until they grew up. From my personal experience, it’s these same self-anointed gaming royals that, for the most part will not lift a finger to work or help out at a match. You know the ones I’m talking about, they show up five minutes before the safety brief, are always ‘smoking and joking’ and ‘cleaning’ their gear between stages instead of helping with resetting the targetry and pasting targets, and are packed up and gone as soon as the last round is fired if not sooner. I’ve spent my entire adult life in the Army and have been stationed all over the country and have had the opportunity to shoot with many different clubs and shooting organizations, IDPA, TSA, USPSA, etc. and I believe that has afforded me a unique perspective in regards to how clubs are run and the interactions of the members and the interactions of the members with regards to how new shooters / prospective new members are treated. What I have observed is the clubs with the ‘Gamers click’ turn off a lot of shooters and that can be bad for the growth of the sport and the local clubs (revenue), and gun owners as a whole. I’ve read some older posts stating something along the lines of well we did ‘x’ and the revolver participation numbers are only 5, 10, or 15 shooters out of a total participation of 200 or 300 and people are stumped as what to do and are ready to give up after one half-hearted attempt. Really? After years and years of denigrating (look that one up) the revolver as a relevant defensive and completion tool these same self important individuals just expect revolver participation numbers to suddenly uptick? Any campaign to bring in new revolver shooters or to have current semi-auto pistol shooters to pull out their wheel guns from the back of the safe is going to take not only time but effort to change the shooters perceptions regarding the revolver in completion. An important first step will be to level the playing field. The choice is really quite simple when you look at the total numbers of 625 moon clipped fed revolvers (a pittance) versus eight shot revolvers (again, a pittance) versus the tens of millions of six shot speed loader fed revolvers. Either continue to cater to the 625 cabal, or the few eight shots crowd, and eventually kill the revolver division or change the revolver division rules so that competitors use existing six shot, speed loader feed revolvers, period. If a person were to look at the equation from a business perspective and the potential for new customers (moon clip vs. speed loader) and new revenue it’s a no brainer. Unfortunately, popularity contests (625) and politics will hold the process hostage and paralyze the decision makers into doing nothing, or worse, have them establishing a ‘blue ribbon’ committee to study the problem for years and coming up with no recommendations.