FNS-9 Competition & "The List"

[sperman]

I'm having a hard time getting all that worked up about it either. It's not like the gun is some one-off super gun that gives Dave any unfair competitive advantage.

If that's the case, then why doesn't Dave just shoot the 4" gun?

[motosapiens]

I acknowledge that for other people, this issue may be worth having a cow about. I'm not saying that's wrong, either. I'm just saying that in my estimation, having a cow is not going to have any more effect than simply noting the incident in this instance, so I might as well save my cows for issues that I *can* actually influence.

Edited March 21, 2013 by motosapiens

[Shokr21]

I'm having a hard time getting all that worked up about it either. It's not like the gun is some one-off super gun that gives Dave any unfair competitive advantage.

If that's the case, then why doesn't Dave just shoot the 4" gun?

Amen.

[cnote]

I'm having a hard time getting all that worked up about it either. It's not like the gun is some one-off super gun that gives Dave any unfair competitive advantage.

If that's the case, then why doesn't Dave just shoot the 4" gun?

Amen.

Not saying I agree with it being used in production... but....

Dave has zero to do with this and shouldn't be a part of the discussion. I have never even met the guy.

He is doing/shooting what he is told to do/shoot by his employer so that he can make money to live.

I don't always agree with my employer, but I do as I am told or

I look for employment elsewhere, by their choice or by mine. That is just life.

If I was CEO of FNH, he would shoot he 4" for the time being

If I was the Marketing Director for FNH, I would be asking for a raise for all the free advertising that was created for this new product, free of charge.

Priceless!!!!

Edited March 21, 2013 by cnote

[ima45dv8]

I've grown weary of all this FN, Dave and USPSA bashing.

We've tried to give some leeway for the discussion, but it's gotten ugly.

Please remember...

Posting Guidelines

Attitude

Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful.

Closed pending discussion by the Moderating Team.

[ima45dv8]

We're reopening this -- after a lot of housekeeping.

MANY posts were removed from the discussion. If yours is gone, sorry, but it's not coming back.

Please keep in mind the portion of the Forum Guidelines quoted immediately above.

If it gets nasty again, the thread and the topic will be closed.

Play nice, or play elsewhere.

Thank you in advance for your restraint.

[Shokr21]

So anyone out there that has found a FNS-9 Competition? I think it's an interesting design and I'd like to see one in person to decide if it's worth the hype.

[sperman]

I would be interested in knowing what standard FN used for meeting the requirement of available to the general public. If 2000 units went to the Timbukto police force, I don't think they have much of a leg to stand on. If 150 are for sale in Belgium, I might revise my opinion.

[warpspeed]

Come on Jake, are you trying to get this closed again ?

Enough with the personal attacks.

Thank you to the mods for letting this discussion continue.

[sperman]

Any post making reference to derogatory remarks about USPSA, will be deleted. Thanks for pointing out the post I missed. It was an oversight.

[Racer377]

Someone who had absolutely nothing to do with USPSA and/or FN screwed up and didn't follow the rules when that gun was approved. Is that OK to say?

I am curious as to what led to this unknown person, who had nothing to do with, relation to, or association with USPSA or FN, to such a screw up.

[JakeMartens]

Someone who had absolutely nothing to do with USPSA and/or FN screwed up and didn't follow the rules when that gun was approved. Is that OK to say?

I am curious as to what led to this unknown person, who had nothing to do with, relation to, or association with USPSA or FN, to such a screw up.

4. The gun must be viewed by NROI prior to its acceptance. 5. A production gun approval form filled out and signed and returned to NROI.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-production-gunlist.php

[warpspeed]

As best I can tell, FNH submitted all the required paperwork and supplied a gun to NROI for approval just like the written requirements say. Jon Amidon reviewed the document and found everything in order. He examined the gun and found it to be compliant. So, the gun went on the approved list. I'm guessing that the VP @ FNH who certified the number of guns produced went off of someones directive or under the assumption that that they had been made and really did not think too much about it.

When the FNH sponsored shooters started using it in USPSA matches under Production, they began their marketing campaign to promote it and generate interest and thereby sell them. Problem is that when those of us who started looking for them could not find them. This was in direct conflict with the requirements for the gun to be listed as "Production Legal". This was brought up to NROI & USPSA. Both have stated they will not remove the gun from the list. Both have said FNH met the requirements.

At issue here, and what needs to be addressed, is how does it get fixed ? Those at the USPSA who we assume can fix it have not. FNH and their sponsored shooter could voluntarily stop using it for USPSA Production until they start shipping units to the general public as required. At this point, that is the only way it will happen.

[OUshooter]

I'm coming into this thread late, and I'm not a Production guy. However, it seems odd to me that a gun that I can't readily find for purchase would be on the Production list. It's even refered several times on the FNH website as a "prototype".

EAA:

http://www.galleryof...=&zipcode=73034

FNS:

http://www.galleryof...=&zipcode=73034

GunGenie doesn't carry every make and model, but they have a pretty extensive collection. I'm also not saying that it's the yardstick by which "available" will be judged. Hell I've never seen or even heard of half the guns on the Production List, but most the ones I looked for I could find in the US somewhere.

I don't doubt that it will be legal in the near future it just seems like maybe someone "jumped the gun".

[beltjones]

I'm coming into this thread late, and I'm not a Production guy. However, it seems odd to me that a gun that I can't readily find for purchase would be on the Production list. It's even refered several times on the FNH website as a "prototype".

EAA:

http://www.galleryof...=&zipcode=73034

FNS:

http://www.galleryof...=&zipcode=73034

GunGenie doesn't carry every make and model, but they have a pretty extensive collection. I'm also not saying that it's the yardstick by which "available" will be judged. Hell I've never seen or even heard of half the guns on the Production List, but most the ones I looked for I could find in the US somewhere.

I don't doubt that it will be legal in the near future it just seems like maybe someone "jumped the gun".

I emailed Davidson's a few days ago to ask about the gun in question, and not only did they not have any, they didn't have plans to order any. The only option was to try to special order one.

[Flexmoney]

Thanks to the Mod Team here (minus me, I'm not making calls on this) for cleaning up the thread and allowing the conversation to continue (under the forum rules).

===============

I am going to be speaking as the Area 5 Director here, I am not speaking for the rest of the Board.

There have been a lot of USPSA member questions on the FNS Competition model guns, on how they got onto the Production list, the process of getting guns on the Production list, if a gun is on the list correctly or not, and...if not, what to do about it.

Again, I am not speaking for the BOD. In fact, other than (robust) discussion, the BOD has taken no further action (and, by that, I mean there have been no motions made, nor special meetings, etc.).

Here is my perspective on this topic, as I see it from my position as AD5.

- The gun was viewed at SHOT (DNROI)

- The form was filled out by the division VP of the company

- The gun went on the approved list.

- A factory team shooter shot the approved gun at a big match.

- Members saw that, and wondered where they could get one.

- Guns don't seem to be on US market.

- BOD member brought up topic on BOD email list and asked DNROI

- DNROI indicated the company had filled out the form.

- BOD asked DNROI to contact the company for clarity.

- DNROI got a letter back which he shared with the BOD. (end of Feb.)

- The BOD was mixed on the letter. There seemed to be some communication issues, which might be understandable given...

- The BOD had some internal discussion on what "available to the general public" means.

- Of note...and I missed this email until just today...DNROI got a message (which I believe might pre-date the letter) from FNH that stated, " This firearm’s initial production was quickly scooped up by the international, government and law enforcement community."

[Steve RA]

This reminds me of one of William Shakespeare's plays, lets see, which one was it ?? Oh yes "Much Ado about Nothing" !!!

[D.Hayden]

This reminds me of one of William Shakespeare's plays, lets see, which one was it ?? Oh yes "Much Ado about Nothing" !!!

I think in this case, it probably is, but better to put something in place, before it really would be a discernible difference

I think this:

>>

"This firearm’s initial production was quickly scooped up by the international, government and law enforcement community."

<<

The rules just have to hash out if this qualifies as generally available - as being discussed in the other thread

[Shokr21]

- Of note...and I missed this email until just today...DNROI got a message (which I believe might pre-date the letter) from FNH that stated, " This firearm’s initial production was quickly scooped up by the international, government and law enforcement community."

So the gun is not available to the general public, admittedly so by FNH themselves?

[Ben Stoeger]

- Of note...and I missed this email until just today...DNROI got a message (which I believe might pre-date the letter) from FNH that stated, " This firearm’s initial production was quickly scooped up by the international, government and law enforcement community."

So the gun is not available to the general public, admittedly so by FNH themselves?

Yeah but only because the gun is so popular... get it?

[Flexmoney]

- Of note...and I missed this email until just today...DNROI got a message (which I believe might pre-date the letter) from FNH that stated, " This firearm’s initial production was quickly scooped up by the international, government and law enforcement community."

So the gun is not available to the general public, admittedly so by FNH themselves?

If you are looking to place blame, you are going to have to look around quite a bit.

FN filled out our form. Our form doesn't say "general" public. And, historically, I think there has been some questions that never really got answered about who the general public is anyway.

We need to clear the wording up, IMO.

[BritinUSA]

Is a copy of the blank form online anywhere (not one filled in by FN or anyone else), just the blank one ?

[DWFAN]

- Of note...and I missed this email until just today...DNROI got a message (which I believe might pre-date the letter) from FNH that stated, " This firearm’s initial production was quickly scooped up by the international, government and law enforcement community."

So the gun is not available to the general public, admittedly so by FNH themselves?

If you are looking to place blame, you are going to have to look around quite a bit.

FN filled out our form. Our form doesn't say "general" public. And, historically, I think there has been some questions that never really got answered about who the general public is anyway.

We need to clear the wording up, IMO.

It says available to the public. When has it been available to the public ? As far as most of us know, it hasnt been. The fact that "initial production was scooped up by... insert commercial/government entities here.... " Does not make it available to the public. Or does it?

[DWFAN]

Is a copy of the blank form online anywhere (not one filled in by FN or anyone else), just the blank one ?

http://api.viglink.c...sonp_13644156369062

I (name) ____________________________ state that (company name)

_____________________________has made over 2000 complete "ready to fire" firearms

(not just frame or part kits).

Model___________________________ Barrel length _______________________

Weight with empty magazine inserted____________ in caliber_____________.

(2) This model firearm has been available for sale to the public since _____/____/____.

(3) This model had its first production start on _________/_________/____________.

Signature_____________________________

Title __________________________

Edited March 27, 2013 by DWFAN

[cnote]

other thread i believe