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FNS-9 Competition & "The List"


warpspeed

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I think I answered the "current rules" concern on another thread. It's important to note that everybody working on these things has a life and other things to do in addition to their NROI/BOD VOLUNTEER jobs.

As for training the staff, it was a necessary and good thing, in my opinion, to bring them up to speed on just what USPSA is all about. They are excellent office workers, and all of them have a good work ethic. The one thing they are not is competitive shooters, or even gun owners. The training taught them some valuable things about 1) What a USPSA match/Club/Section, etc. is all about, 2) What it's like to shoot a handgun in competition, 3) what NROI does, and 4) that guns, no matter what they look like, are not bad things.

I did the training. It was very much appreciated and as I said, necessary. This was something the former ED never would consider, yet it was badly needed. That's not a good thing, IMO.

As a board member and an instructor, I applaud the current ED's efforts to improve the knowledge and abilities of the staff. And, she is working hard to modernize our web page and bring USPSA into the current digital age. However, that won't happen overnight. Constructive suggestions are welcomed, though, so contact her with anything you think will help, or better yet, provide the solution yourself. Improving things within the organization is a two-way street.

As for the FN thing, FN complied with our current requirements to add a gun to a division. Like somebody mentioned earlier, we have to comply with IPSC regs to shoot there, which means some of our guns may not be available outside the US, but are still legal. The opposite applies as well. I don't know where the guns are available, but we have a signed statement verifying that the requisite number were produced and were available to the general public somewhere. Per our rules for Production Division, this is all that is required. The DNROI received the forms and reviewed the gun at SHOT, satisfying the requirements. If FN was delayed in production due to the current run on guns and all things related, that is understandable. We, USPSA, are bound by our rules and our agreement to accept the statement from the manufacturer. So, this gun is a done deal, and y'all might as well quit hollering about it. Nothing is going to change.

As for other guns taking longer, many times that's a function of the manufacturer not providing the required information, for whatever reason. We are not in the business of hounding gun companies to provide new guns. The process for acceptance into a certain division is manufacturer driven.

Troy

Thanks Troy

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FNS competing head to head against the Beretta this weekend down in Bama? Possibly a prelude to Production Nationals later in the year.

I know Jim Zebal is going to be rocking the Beretta this weekend, who else?

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It's kinda the way a lot of things work these days. We don't care about the rules, this is it and if you don't like it tough s**t. Sound familiar? I own 3 FN products right now and I like there stuff. I'll probably get a FNS comp when there available, but I still don't think they should be allowed to use the long slide untill we can all get one. Just my opinion....

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Ward,

here are the criteria for acceptance onto the list:

  • 1. 2000 manufactured and available to the general public .
  • 2. No magwell attachments or external flaring of the magwell, the lateral internal width of the well may not be more than 1/4" wider than the lateral width of the magazine. The lateral width of the well to mean the narrow width where the mainspring housing is inserted, the lateral width of the magazine to mean the narrow side that faces the mainspring housing when inserted into the handgun.
  • 3. Must meet the criteria listed in the appendix of the current rule book as well as that listed above.
  • 4. The gun must be viewed by NROI prior to its acceptance. 5. A production gun approval form filled out and signed and returned to NROI.

Looking at the list, it appears to include foreign guns, not readily available in the US. Nothing in the requirements forces U.S. Market availability......

How do you know that 2,000 units weren't available somewhere in the world? Did FN say they were behind, in distributing the initial 2,000 guns, or in bringing them to market in the U.S. in desired (by the company, not USPSA) quantity.....

I think there are far too many unknowns to be slinging accusations around....

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Nik,

No one seems to have them for sale in the US. Heck, FN doesn't even have the gun listed on their web site under handguns; commercial or LE.

And if that is the case, they have chosen to take a gun made in the USA, make 2000 and ship them overseas then I'd say the gun is not available to the general public as required but I do not think that is the case. The rep for FN as well as their press releases have said they are not shipping yet.

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How about USPSA asks FN where the 2000 guns went? If they went overseas fine. But let me know what country has one that you can purchase. There is already those guys that have the one foreign cz (Can't remember which country has it) with the longer barrel. Hell, just show me one gun that isn't owned buy someone getting a paycheck from FN.

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FN has admitted they havent made or released that many guns yet. Why is this so complicated ? Why excuses from some of the BOD members in this thread ? A rule violation has been pointed out. Evidently FN admitted the rule violation. Yet still seem to be making excuses.

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FN has admitted they havent made or released that many guns yet. Why is this so complicated ? Why excuses from some of the BOD members in this thread ? A rule violation has been pointed out. Evidently FN admitted the rule violation. Yet still seem to be making excuses.

What? Sorry, but this is completely incorrect. FNH has said on multiple occasions that they have in fact made 2000. As far as I know no one from FNH has said they made a rule violation. I don't know wher you got your "facts".

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FN has admitted they havent made or released that many guns yet. Why is this so complicated ? Why excuses from some of the BOD members in this thread ? A rule violation has been pointed out. Evidently FN admitted the rule violation. Yet still seem to be making excuses.

You are in Virginia, you and McGruff run over there and ask for the range of serial numbers

Mcgruff-New-Animation-606x1024.jpg

PO Box 9424

McLean, VA 22102

Phone: 703-288-3500

Fax: 703-288-4507 Joe

Edited by JakeMartens
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Nik,

No one seems to have them for sale in the US. Heck, FN doesn't even have the gun listed on their web site under handguns; commercial or LE.

And if that is the case, they have chosen to take a gun made in the USA, make 2000 and ship them overseas then I'd say the gun is not available to the general public as required but I do not think that is the case. The rep for FN as well as their press releases have said they are not shipping yet.

That's however not what the rules seem to say......

Translation: Availability anywhere in the world, with 2,000 units manufactured is what it takes to get a gun on the list.....

Maybe we should discuss changing that process to available in the US commercial market for any new approvals....

Notice I said discuss -- not change. I don't know where I stand on that -- I'd want to hear the explanation for why the current process is the current process. I'm assuming there's some historical significance, or some points in favor of being that inclusive....

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There isn't any historical significance that I am aware of. When Production started, we merely copied the IPSC list.

If we update the wording, wouldn't it make sense that the availability to the general public...of USPSA...ought to be the regular US citizens?

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FN has admitted they havent made or released that many guns yet. Why is this so complicated ? Why excuses from some of the BOD members in this thread ? A rule violation has been pointed out. Evidently FN admitted the rule violation. Yet still seem to be making excuses.

What? Sorry, but this is completely incorrect. FNH has said on multiple occasions that they have in fact made 2000. As far as I know no one from FNH has said they made a rule violation. I don't know wher you got your "facts".

Chuck,

FN needs to get their story straight.

Read March/April 2013 Front Sight - pg 20 " FN's rep told us they're "behind a major agency order, but once that's filled we expect to start shipping mid-year."

So which is it ? Have they shipped 2000 units or do they expect to start shipping them mid-year ? Or do they think because they have an order or them that counts ?

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Nik,

No one seems to have them for sale in the US. Heck, FN doesn't even have the gun listed on their web site under handguns; commercial or LE.

And if that is the case, they have chosen to take a gun made in the USA, make 2000 and ship them overseas then I'd say the gun is not available to the general public as required but I do not think that is the case. The rep for FN as well as their press releases have said they are not shipping yet.

That's however not what the rules seem to say......

Translation: Availability anywhere in the world, with 2,000 units manufactured is what it takes to get a gun on the list.....

Maybe we should discuss changing that process to available in the US commercial market for any new approvals....

Notice I said discuss -- not change. I don't know where I stand on that -- I'd want to hear the explanation for why the current process is the current process. I'm assuming there's some historical significance, or some points in favor of being that inclusive....

Well the USPSA President seems to think that the fact that the rule book does not define "General Public" it makes it open to interpretation so you are in good company there Nik.

We have a system where by the manufacture gets to self-certify their data. Which is fine as I don't think we need the NROI spending time doing forensic accounting but when a member says I'd like to buy a gun on the list and it is not offered for sale anywhere in the USA and does not seem to be offered for sale anywhere else in the entire world, I think we could likely agree it is not available to anyone, let alone the "general public" as required.

So here is my offer.

Show me where the FNH FNS-9 Competition is for sale and I will shut up and go away.

I know everyone of you have done the Google search and found nothing too. Everyone of you have tried to find it just to get me to shut up. No one has posted it cause it does not exist.

PROVE ME WRONG.

Bring it.

Edited by warpspeed
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FN has admitted they havent made or released that many guns yet. Why is this so complicated ? Why excuses from some of the BOD members in this thread ? A rule violation has been pointed out. Evidently FN admitted the rule violation. Yet still seem to be making excuses.

What? Sorry, but this is completely incorrect. FNH has said on multiple occasions that they have in fact made 2000. As far as I know no one from FNH has said they made a rule violation. I don't know wher you got your "facts".

Chuck,

FN needs to get their story straight.

Read March/April 2013 Front Sight - pg 20 " FN's rep told us they're "behind a major agency order, but once that's filled we expect to start shipping mid-year."

So which is it ? Have they shipped 2000 units or do they expect to start shipping them mid-year ? Or do they think because they have an order or them that counts ?

So the article where the author talks to FNH at SHOT in mid January and they say they are not there yet. Then two weeks later FNH signs the form saying they hit 2K. Not seeing the discrepancy. The interview in SHOT happened weeks before they signed the letter. It was just printed afterwards. BTW, filling an order, on general, means that the guns have shipped. If that major order brought them to 2k they have fulfilled the obligation, not lied.

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If we update the wording, wouldn't it make sense that the availability to the general public...of USPSA...ought to be the regular US citizens?

I agree with this 100%. There is simply no point whatsoever in having a gun on the USPSA approved production list that is not available to the members of USPSA.

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There isn't any historical significance that I am aware of. When Production started, we merely copied the IPSC list.

If we update the wording, wouldn't it make sense that the availability to the general public...of USPSA...ought to be the regular US citizens?

Yep. Though I'd like us to be careful, as I wouldn't us to inadvertently hose foreign competitors, or those folks who tracked down now extinct guns. In other words, S&W 3rd generation autos (5906, 4506, etc) ought to remain on the production list, as should some other extinct guns.....

Want to add a new gun to the list -- 2,000 manufactured and at least some percentage of that shipped to dealers for distribution the general public.....

So, manufacturer X creates a new model and ships 2,000 guns to a homeland security agency -- not yet ready for the list. Manufacturer then sends 400 guns out to distributors for general availability, that might be time to add them to the list.....

I doubt that 1 in ten members is going to buy a new blaster design as soon as its released.....

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http://www.gunbroker...?Item=332744434

Find a new argument chuck.

OK, and it only took Beretta 20 years to do that? Although out of curiousity, what about this, from your own auction?

"The commercial M9 pistol is the closest replica to the military M9 that a civilian may legally own. What sets it apart from the 92FS is: A. Distinctive military style markings: on various components closely replicate those of the U. S. Armed Forces M9 pistols."

It's not the same as a military M9, same as the SEAL variants of the 226, Mil variants of the 228, Miami version of the Glock, SIS versions of the Kimbers, HRT verisions of the Springfield, etc, etc, etc. are all just a little different from their commercially available counterparts. Back to you Brandon.

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Why do we have a list? What is it's purpose?

To provide a list of guns that meet the characteristics suitable as a "Production" gun. And a place where competitors can check to find out if the gun has been approved by NROI as having been certified by the manufacturer and having been made in a quantity over 2K and be generally available. I routinely see questions about why is x gun not on the production list. Some are reasonable and I've asked John about them, like oddball Smith & Wesson models from the third gen where they had what seemed like 400 different models of the same gun each with a different model designation. Others, and I've seen John put it in Front Sight at least twice, ask about single action guns like Kimber or Springfield Armory 1911's. This is normally from new members who see Production in the title and assume since Kimber and SA are Production they should be on the list.

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