warpspeed Posted February 19, 2013 Author Share Posted February 19, 2013 Based on my email exchange with John Amidon, it seemed like he thought everything was just hunky dory and nothing needed to be done. But I may not have understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee blackman Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 I agree with you Strick, rules are set and should be followed. I figured that was pretty much generally understood. In my prior statement I was generalizing more on the scope of marketing, not the actual potential rule break violation. In other words, there are a few thousand shooters out there that will now buy a FNS because they saw Dave Sevigny shooting one, so it must be good kinda thing. As opposed to objectively comparing it to similar platforms, without realizing that someone like Dave, the difference between a Glock, an XD or XDM, an M&P, or a FNS wont be considerable. You can give a C- Class shooter a revolver, or a limited gun, and he will still be a C-Class shooter. An economy car will never be competitive against a hotrod on a drag strip. But Jerry Miculek would probably outshoot a C-class limited shooter with his revolver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Here is where I'm at, at the moment... - The gun was used because it is on the approved list. (I don't fault the shooter, at all.) - The gun is on the list, because DNROI got the gun approval form back from the company...which said they meet the criteria. - I don't know if the guns are available anywhere (???). There is this press release, from mid 2012, stating the guns that are out are prototypes, and that actual production was scheduled to start this year (1st quarter, 2013) http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/6/prweb9588131.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 The only thing FNH needs to do now is sell them to the public. I'd love to switch out my M&P Pro for this, if I can just get my hands on one and see what it feels like. I'd like to see how it compares to a CZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Until FN can show where this gun is available to the "general public" it should be removed from the list. Sure, they could have 2000 serial'd frames sitting in a shop somewhere, but that is only part of the requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Here is where I'm at, at the moment... - The gun was used because it is on the approved list. (I don't fault the shooter, at all.) - The gun is on the list, because DNROI got the gun approval form back from the company...which said they meet the criteria. - I don't know if the guns are available anywhere (???). There is this press release, from mid 2012, stating the guns that are out are prototypes, and that actual production was scheduled to start this year (1st quarter, 2013) http://www.prweb.com...rweb9588131.htm I agree with that. I don't blame the shooter, he shot what was legal. I don't blame DNROI, they can only go off what they are told at the time. Seems like the system is a little broken though if all it takes is a promise to make the required number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Have we had any check in from Europe or other regions, where FN guns are much more widely distributed? It's possible the guns are made and waiting for some ATF import permit, and it's widely known how backup up that operation is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProGunGuy Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 the only thing i can think of is that they are counting all FNS's as one model, and not differetiating the long slide, which if correct, would not be proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marv Z Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Have we had any check in from Europe or other regions, where FN guns are much more widely distributed? It's possible the guns are made and waiting for some ATF import permit, and it's widely known how backup up that operation is... FNS's are made in the USA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 (edited) The USPSA -NROI Production Gun List starts off with the requirement of " 2000 manufactured and available to the general public" I'm not sure how being available in Europe would apply to USPSA since IPSC has its own rules, and lists. Edited February 20, 2013 by G-ManBart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegot38 Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Unless there i factory and aftermarket support, inexpensive and available mags, i see it going nowhere. there are plenty of people still waiting on 45 FN mags It is going far enough that a previous national champion is competing with one. True enough,and he get paid to do so. But will the average shooter accept it if there are no mags, holsters, mod parts available, and at acceptable pricing?? All of these items are in the works as I type. Gun comes with Sevigny Sights and a first rate trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Until FN can show where this gun is available to the "general public" it should be removed from the list. Sure, they could have 2000 serial'd frames sitting in a shop somewhere, but that is only part of the requirement. Agree. If they're not available to the general public *in the U.S.*, they should be removed from the Production list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 So why only in the US? I made this argument recently. We open our sport to competitors from outside the US as well. What happens to the competitor that has a gun regionally available in their country and that is the only type of gun they can get. (I'm thinking about Russia whih has some pretty specific regs). Say there are 100,000 of them made in that country but they aren't available for export. Is it really that no of a deal to let them compete? I can see an issue if its some major game changing evolution in gun design. But that's not what we're talking about here. A bunch of people in this thread talk about how the FNS isn't that impressive. I've shot Dave's gun and I liked it. It's a decent gun. But it's certainly not anything that's going to make me swap out my Glock at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 So why only in the US? I would say it is based on the US part of USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marv Z Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I'm sure the average FNS you buy at Cabelas is no where near what Dave's factory prepped gun is. I found out the hard way. I'm going to send mine back to FN and see if they will try to improve the trigger somewhat. There customer service is noted for being sub-par also. I'll stick with my CC prepped XDM 5.25 for production at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 So why only in the US? I would say it is based on the US part of USPSA. Bingo. If we were talking about IPSC Production, I might have a different opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 So why only in the US? I made this argument recently. We open our sport to competitors from outside the US as well. What happens to the competitor that has a gun regionally available in their country and that is the only type of gun they can get. (I'm thinking about Russia whih has some pretty specific regs). That is a valid point. I'll have to think on this (or somebody here will know right off and tell me ) I wonder... Competitors outside the US would almost always be members of IPSC. How would it work if we gave IPSC members an allowance to use guns on the IPSC list? While all of our (USPSA) guns aren't going to be on the IPSC list, would there be IPSC list Production guns that wouldn't be very USPSA "Production"? (just throwing that against the wall to see what sticks) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 All USPSA members are, by default, IPSC members. Not sure I'd want to try policing where different members lived, What measure should the BOD use to determine whether a gun is generally available to the public? This question has come up recently. Not wanting to mention the gun control debate but it's related here. Some jurisdictions will likely make certain Production compliant guns accessible to only LE/Military customers. Should those groups be considered the public for purposes of this? I'm thinking in the hypothetical here. Say Glock decides to sell only to LE/Mil customers in CA, NY, and say CO. Are those guns no longer generally available there? Should the Production list vary by state? I don't want to dumb down the divisions to meet the criteria of a few states. I don't think it's healthy for the sport. What does the Enosverse have to say about how we can deal with it. Sorry if this is a bit of thread drift on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 (edited) All USPSA members are, by default, IPSC members. Not sure I'd want to try policing where different members lived, This already happens. Who is the USPSA National Production Champion? Edited February 20, 2013 by Strick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 All USPSA members are, by default, IPSC members. Not sure I'd want to try policing where different members lived, All non USA members of USPSA have an "F" in their USPSA member number. Plus, IPSC (only) members have to ask for an invite form to shoot here, and get a sign off from their home country's IPSC RD. (that may be match level specific, I'd need to look that up) Just brainstorming, but I think we can find a way to let our foreign friends shoot, without leaving a loop hole for a factory shooter to run a prototype gun that other USPSA shooters can't readily get. What measure should the BOD use to determine whether a gun is generally available to the public? That is a good question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Just brainstorming, but I think we can find a way to let our foreign friends shoot, without leaving a loop hole for a factory shooter to run a prototype gun that other USPSA shooters can't readily get. Can't this be fixed by modifying the application process to get a gun on the approved list, instead of creating more potential loopholes ? I don't think we should be granting exceptions to IPSC if those same exceptions are not granted to USPSA members. If a Russian mfr want's to submit a gun for approval, and they pass the approval process, then great. Sphinx is on the list, and probably readily available (if you have the wallet) somewhere, just not as much in the US. That doesnt bother me as much as a factory team having potentially the only models available, and shooting them in USPSA Production events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 All USPSA members are, by default, IPSC members. Not sure I'd want to try policing where different members lived, All non USA members of USPSA have an "F" in their USPSA member number. Plus, IPSC (only) members have to ask for an invite form to shoot here, and get a sign off from their home country's IPSC RD. (that may be match level specific, I'd need to look that up) Just brainstorming, but I think we can find a way to let our foreign friends shoot, without leaving a loop hole for a factory shooter to run a prototype gun that other USPSA shooters can't readily get. What measure should the BOD use to determine whether a gun is generally available to the public? That is a good question. I was thinking of a foreign shooter I know. He's a Canadian but he has a residence in Arizona that he stays in often. Say about half the time. Not sure what his number is. But beyond the match registration thing, Do we want to require RO's to memorize two sets of Production legal guns, and then have to inquire about the shooters member number and/or Nationality before allowing them to shoot a stage in Production? Does it really matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 So why only in the US? I would say it is based on the US part of USPSA. I don't think it matters in this case. I can't find infomation on this gun being available anywhere, except for the prototypes here in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 So why only in the US? I would say it is based on the US part of USPSA. I don't think it matters in this case. I can't find infomation on this gun being available anywhere, except for the prototypes here in the US. No offense to your research skills but if FNH sold 2k to a foreign police agency I doubt you or I would know that. FNH said they made 2k. If it turns out they didn't and lied I'm sure that would be very bad for them. Why risk it? Dave would have won with the short one also. It doesn't make any sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 So why only in the US? I would say it is based on the US part of USPSA. I don't think it matters in this case. I can't find infomation on this gun being available anywhere, except for the prototypes here in the US. No offense to your research skills but if FNH sold 2k to a foreign police agency I doubt you or I would know that. And that wouldn't meet the requirement of 2K available to the general public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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