Ssanders224 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I would have gotten a completion date prior to sending any parts or money as part of the original contract. zdont care if its a gun build or putting tires on. Time to completion is part of the contract. In your case I would give HIM the completion date or tell him to return my parts. Your post kind of made me laugh under breath. I don't think most smiths even know what "completion date" means. I've had some bad luck with guns and Smiths lately, and I'm trying my best not to let it leave a bad taste in my mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I have a beautiful Krieghoff and a Kolar O/U shotguns, one is deep relief engraved and gold inlayed the other is Bulino engraving with gold inlays. All engraving was done by hand (hammer and chisel) not with an electric engraving tool. It took 18 months for one and 20 months for the other not including custom made exhibition grade french walnut stocks and forends that took an additional 6 months per gun. There is no way it should even take a year to build a competition pistol unless the smith is over booking jobs. The engravers I used told me up front when they could start on the guns and the approximate time it would take to complete them. Both guns were finished within the estimated times. There is no where near the work building a competition pistol. I almost posted this exact response. I shot skeet and trap competitively for several years, and while I never had a full house engrave/stock job done on a K gun (hard to afford in college).... I shot with many people that did. I witnessed many people have EXTENSIVE hand engraving and custom stock work preformed on their guns, and never heard of a years wait time. I also had work done on Berettas, Brownings, and other guns, and usually had them back within the month. I do not understand the wait times that some pistol Smiths require. Yes I know what goes into building a gun. And Yes I understand manufacturing. I work as an Engineer in a manufacturing setting, but I still don't get it. I do however realize that as long as we are handing our money over to the smiths, and quietly waiting and excepting their continually lengthening lead times, then thats how it's going to be. However, I get very tired of "I'm finishing a gun, and yours is the next on the bench".... Or "I should be able to get on it next week".... Only to wait many more months. I'm speaking from personal experience with a VERY popular builder. Also, I'm waiting on some work right now, and have been being told statements like that for a few months.... But when I recently inquired a little more, the truth came forth, and I was informed the Smith has had other things (business related) on his plate that have been taking up his time. A little professionalism and accurate communication regarding my property, money, and contract would have been nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Don't forget that it's not the time it takes to build a pistol that makes it a year or 8 months, whatever. It's the number of guns waiting in line to get built that dictates the wait. In theory the top builders will have the longest wait times but in reality that's not always the case. Matt Cheely builds guns that are extremely hard to beat and he is probably half the wait time as some of the "top" builders. And HE will build your gun. With some of the bigger shops there may be other guys building your gun under the umbrella of the "Top" smith. It pays to do your homework before committing to a builder. Then stay in touch with them during the build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Don't forget that it's not the time it takes to build a pistol that makes it a year or 8 months, whatever. It's the number of guns waiting in line to get built that dictates the wait. In theory the top builders will have the longest wait times but in reality that's not always the case. Matt Cheely builds guns that are extremely hard to beat and he is probably half the wait time as some of the "top" builders. And HE will build your gun. With some of the bigger shops there may be other guys building your gun under the umbrella of the "Top" smith. It pays to do your homework before committing to a builder. Then stay in touch with them during the build. Good point. Lots of people send their guns to big name guys thinking they are going to build the gun, and then it's done by someone else. Some of these guys don't even check the work before it goes out the door. I've seen some real crap from more than a couple of big name guys who took a lot of money from people and should be downright embarrassed with what the delivered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I would have gotten a completion date prior to sending any parts or money as part of the original contract. zdont care if its a gun build or putting tires on. Time to completion is part of the contract. In your case I would give HIM the completion date or tell him to return my parts. That's hilarious, have you ever had a well known and reputable smith do a custom build for you? The best they can do is give you a "window" of estimation. None of the top smiths that I'm aware of do "contracts" and none give a "completion date." That's just asinine. They don't do it for very good reasons. Parts get messed up, machines break, refinish takes time, shipping takes time, personal issues, sickness, etc. etc. all come into play. There ARE top-shelf builders that don't have long wait times, like Sarge pointed out. Matt Cheely and Shay Akai come to mind. But, like I said...if you're going after the VERY best (Chuck Rogers, John Harrison, Heirloom [Yost,Burton,Bailey], CT Brian, Ned Christiansen, etc.) the point is, you're GOING to wait a long time, it's just how it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I would have gotten a completion date prior to sending any parts or money as part of the original contract. zdont care if its a gun build or putting tires on. Time to completion is part of the contract. In your case I would give HIM the completion date or tell him to return my parts. That's hilarious, have you ever had a well known and reputable smith do a custom build for you? The best they can do is give you a "window" of estimation. None of the top smiths that I'm aware of do "contracts" and none give a "completion date." That's just asinine. They don't do it for very good reasons. Parts get messed up, machines break, refinish takes time, shipping takes time, personal issues, sickness, etc. etc. all come into play. There ARE top-shelf builders that don't have long wait times, like Sarge pointed out. Matt Cheely and Shay Akai come to mind. But, like I said...if you're going after the VERY best (Chuck Rogers, John Harrison, Heirloom [Yost,Burton,Bailey], CT Brian, Ned Christiansen, etc.) the point is, you're GOING to wait a long time, it's just how it is. I agree with the entirety of your post... But passing the inadiquacies of your business to your customer (machine downtime, supplier problems, lack of manpower, personal issues) is not a luxury the rest of the manufacturing world has. If we did, our days would be numbered. Instead, we strive to improve our operation continually, providing shorter lead times, higher quality, better communication, and on time delivery. I guess I just don't recognize that being a trend in the Smithing industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Sounds like the guy forgot. I had Derek @ Millennium Custom build me a gun several years ago and I don't recall it taking too long and he delivered it on time IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) These custom guns better be heirloom quality since they won't be done until your kids pick them up as part of your estate.... Edited January 20, 2013 by ctay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricardo28 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) Well some of the top guys (Rodgers, Rodgers, Heinie, Liebenberg ) do have hundreds of other guns waiting to be built. Say each gun gets 25+ hours or attention. Thats anywhere from 2.5-4+ days per gun depending on their daily commitment. Thats around 80 guns a year. With a log of 250+ it is easily 3 + years before your name pops up. As stated, many of these guys will not ask for your parts until your name comes up and from then it will be a few weeks before you get it depending on the finish. I do not think it is unreasonable being from one of these guys mentioned. Oh yea, last i checked, Heinie has enough orders that he will retire or die before taking another. Again, they are not taking 3 years to build one gun. Edited January 20, 2013 by ricardo28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I don't know of any two smiths who run their business the same way. Each smith has different demands of their time, some examples maybe- high volume of small jobs, high volume of complete builds, parts business along with their smithing, flood of phone calls daily, e-mails, snail mail, full spectrium of services like one of parts-proto types-finish prep to complete refinish- welding-all hand work/no machines- doing specialty work for other smiths....... they do all of their own book keeping, web sites, local tranfers, retail sales, the list can go on and on. There are some smiths who can get 10 to 12 hours a day at the bench and others who are lucky to get 3 to 4 hours or less. There also can be employees or apprentices or classes. Then there is life it self like spouses, children, ex's, health/death, vacations... Completion dates for smiths run like today, tomorrow, this week, next week, next month, few/couple of months, this year, next year, few/several years, to when I get to it. Three years for one smith maybe super fast or super slow. One will never know without some research. Rich There is also customers from hell who can affect wait times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphamikefoxtrot Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Alright, will someone please tell me the difference between building a full on open race gun and a heirloom 1911? You still have to fit all the same parts. Are you calling the heirloom gun that because it is covered with engraving and gold inlays? The guns that I consider heirloom guns aren't built by any of the names that you guys have mentioned. I don't mean that disrespectfully, I just don't get into that side of the gun world. My guns are workhorses. They have all seen a ton of action and will see much more before they are retired. Even though they are workhorses, the smith built them as works of art. The slides are still tight as ever, the trigger is perfect, and they shoot one hole if I do my part. I can understand that a particular builder may have a long line and that it may take him years to get to your name on the list. I personally wouldn't wait that long for a 1911 that I probably won't ever shoot anyway. I can't understand that it takes longer to build those unless you are talking about inlay work, and I would rather have the chrome and gold taurus 1911 than spend crazy money on a gun I can't shoot. Here's an idea - for those of you who have those "heirloom" guns and have waited multiple years for them - Please post pics, so we can see what we are talking about........and if you are brave, what you paid for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig N Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Don't forget that it's not the time it takes to build a pistol that makes it a year or 8 months, whatever. It's the number of guns waiting in line to get built that dictates the wait. In theory the top builders will have the longest wait times but in reality that's not always the case. Matt Cheely builds guns that are extremely hard to beat and he is probably half the wait time as some of the "top" builders. And HE will build your gun. With some of the bigger shops there may be other guys building your gun under the umbrella of the "Top" smith. It pays to do your homework before committing to a builder. Then stay in touch with them during the build. Makes ya wonder how much you really do pay for a "name". I remember reading stories back around the time Nighthawk started up with some ex-wilson smiths. Was your Wilson gun really just a "pre Nighthawk" and that sort of stuff. I'd like to think that the under-smiths are taught to do the same work the same way the master-smith would do it but I know I'd just be kidding myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastarget Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 Here's an idea - for those of you who have those "heirloom" guns and have waited multiple years for them - Please post pics, so we can see what we are talking about........and if you are brave, what you paid for them? I like this idea, pretty constructive, how about some pics and how long it took to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 The Springfield Custom shop and Wilson Combat are at 24 months for their guns........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Alright, will someone please tell me the difference between building a full on open race gun and a heirloom 1911? You still have to fit all the same parts. Are you calling the heirloom gun that because it is covered with engraving and gold inlays? The guns that I consider heirloom guns aren't built by any of the names that you guys have mentioned. I don't mean that disrespectfully, I just don't get into that side of the gun world. My guns are workhorses. They have all seen a ton of action and will see much more before they are retired. Even though they are workhorses, the smith built them as works of art. The slides are still tight as ever, the trigger is perfect, and they shoot one hole if I do my part. I can understand that a particular builder may have a long line and that it may take him years to get to your name on the list. I personally wouldn't wait that long for a 1911 that I probably won't ever shoot anyway. I can't understand that it takes longer to build those unless you are talking about inlay work, and I would rather have the chrome and gold taurus 1911 than spend crazy money on a gun I can't shoot. Here's an idea - for those of you who have those "heirloom" guns and have waited multiple years for them - Please post pics, so we can see what we are talking about........and if you are brave, what you paid for them? To me an heirloom quality gun is one that is basically flawless. There are zero machine/file marks. The fitment is perfect. It is more an aesthetics think than a function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attila Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I have talked to several top smiths about their wait times. The most appealing method I have seen is that by Heirloom Precision. They tell you what openings they have. The opening you pick is when they work on your gun. Supprisingly, they had some that were not too far off. Many signed up for a longer wait in order to have time to save the final cost. I have been on the Harrison wait list for about 2 years. Rogers only started accepting new work again recently. Derek at Millenium wasn't taking new work when I spoke to last spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aglifter Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I'm surprised that SA has that long a wait time - they should have a responsible person running their manufacturing operations. Gun businesses, in general, are not run by professionals - even Kel-Tec has some serious issues with being able to produce enough product. Frankly, I don't think there's enough money in guns to have a serious manufacturing layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Alright, will someone please tell me the difference between building a full on open race gun and a heirloom 1911? You still have to fit all the same parts. Are you calling the heirloom gun that because it is covered with engraving and gold inlays? The guns that I consider heirloom guns aren't built by any of the names that you guys have mentioned. I don't mean that disrespectfully, I just don't get into that side of the gun world. My guns are workhorses. They have all seen a ton of action and will see much more before they are retired. Even though they are workhorses, the smith built them as works of art. The slides are still tight as ever, the trigger is perfect, and they shoot one hole if I do my part. I can understand that a particular builder may have a long line and that it may take him years to get to your name on the list. I personally wouldn't wait that long for a 1911 that I probably won't ever shoot anyway. I can't understand that it takes longer to build those unless you are talking about inlay work, and I would rather have the chrome and gold taurus 1911 than spend crazy money on a gun I can't shoot. Here's an idea - for those of you who have those "heirloom" guns and have waited multiple years for them - Please post pics, so we can see what we are talking about........and if you are brave, what you paid for them? An Heirloom to me is Heirloom Precision (the company), made by either Ted Yost, Jason Burton, Steve Bailey, or a combination of the three. Other people consider an Heirloom as a "gift" or a hand-down to another person or family heirloom. The difference between a race gun and a high end 1911 isn't much I don't think. The long wait list isn't because it takes the gunsmiths so long to build the guns, it's because there are SO many other people waiting for guns to be built ahead of you. I could be wrong, but I see custom 2011's as being mostly machine work, with fitment of parts and the overall functionality of the gun. Same thing happens with a 1911, but the "top" shops from smiths I listed earlier take it a step further. Some of them prefer to do most things by hand, such as hand checkering, blending magwells, and sanding/filing away any machine tool marks. They spend countless amount of hours to deliver a perfect gun to each and every customer. This isn't saying 2011 smiths don't do the same thing, I just think with a high end 1911, a lot of it is about having the most cosmetically, ascetically appealing 1911 possible. Check out http://www.louderthanwords.us/forum/viewforum.php?f=6&sid=fb6816d8f15bea3f6faee9a1ad0afcfb for a huge list of custom high end 1911's. Some smiths to check out: John Harrison: http://www.harrisoncustom.com Chuck Rogers: http://rogersprecision.com Bob Rodgers: http://rodgerspistolsmithing.com Joe Chambers: http://www.chamberscustom.com/about-us Paul Liebenberg: http://www.pistoldynamics.com Mark Morris: http://morriscustompistols.com/main.htm Jeremy Reid: http://www.reidpistolsmithing.com Heirlooom Precision: http://heirloomprecision.com Richard Heinie: http://www.heinie.com/index.php Ned Christiansen: http://www.m-guns.com CT Brian: http://www.ctbrian.com/Greeting.html Don Williams: http://www.theactionworks.com There are more, but that should get you plenty of pictures! As for me, I have a custom Harrison EMP that's my EDC. While it's not quite a full-house build, there was a lot of work put into it. I have almost $3,000 invested into this gun. http://www.1911addicts.com/showthread.php?757-Harrison-EMP&highlight=harrison+emp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastarget Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 Louderthanwords is great website, lots of beautiful guns. CT Brian used to live 10 min away before he moved to AZ, talked to him 3 years ago, he was 5 years out, and was only accepting full gun orders, and none of your parts. Cool guy. neat work. none of those listed by the way have any involvement in our project, to keep things fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCReid Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Just for a small frame of reference, it takes me 120 - 140 hours to build a gun. The 25 hours mentioned previously is simply unattainable building a gun to my standards. Rodgers and Rogers are in the same boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) Awesome to see you post here Jeremy! BTW: Have you guys seen the BTGS fit Jeremy is capable of? Oh my God! It's incredible! Edited January 21, 2013 by polizei1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Alright, will someone please tell me the difference between building a full on open race gun and a heirloom 1911? You still have to fit all the same parts. Are you calling the heirloom gun that because it is covered with engraving and gold inlays? The guns that I consider heirloom guns aren't built by any of the names that you guys have mentioned. I don't mean that disrespectfully, I just don't get into that side of the gun world. My guns are workhorses. They have all seen a ton of action and will see much more before they are retired. Even though they are workhorses, the smith built them as works of art. The slides are still tight as ever, the trigger is perfect, and they shoot one hole if I do my part. I can understand that a particular builder may have a long line and that it may take him years to get to your name on the list. I personally wouldn't wait that long for a 1911 that I probably won't ever shoot anyway. I can't understand that it takes longer to build those unless you are talking about inlay work, and I would rather have the chrome and gold taurus 1911 than spend crazy money on a gun I can't shoot. Here's an idea - for those of you who have those "heirloom" guns and have waited multiple years for them - Please post pics, so we can see what we are talking about........and if you are brave, what you paid for them? To me an heirloom quality gun is one that is basically flawless. There are zero machine/file marks. The fitment is perfect. It is more an aesthetics think than a function. I agree. I've talked to George Huening about the difference between a race gun and a safe queen. On the high end guns, the fit and finish is perfect. All of the seams are nearly invisible. it isn't unusual for grip safeties and other parts to get welded up and re-cut for a perfect fit. Every edge has a nice bevel. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 1 mo. Gans will have it back in about 2 weeks and everyone is happy. The gun will run like sewing machine. I can't think of any thing else I would want out of a gun. Just make it run! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I don't know of any two smiths who run their business the same way. Each smith has different demands of their time, some examples maybe- high volume of small jobs, high volume of complete builds, parts business along with their smithing, flood of phone calls daily, e-mails, snail mail, full spectrium of services like one of parts-proto types-finish prep to complete refinish- welding-all hand work/no machines- doing specialty work for other smiths....... they do all of their own book keeping, web sites, local tranfers, retail sales, the list can go on and on. There are some smiths who can get 10 to 12 hours a day at the bench and others who are lucky to get 3 to 4 hours or less. There also can be employees or apprentices or classes. Then there is life it self like spouses, children, ex's, health/death, vacations... Completion dates for smiths run like today, tomorrow, this week, next week, next month, few/couple of months, this year, next year, few/several years, to when I get to it. Three years for one smith maybe super fast or super slow. One will never know without some research. Rich There is also customers from hell who can affect wait times. This is how I see it from my vantage point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyZip Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) Frankly, I don't think there's enough money in guns to have a serious manufacturing layout. Really? Tell that to Bobby at FGW or any other smith doing work right now building guns. Really, any manufacturing process can be streamlined depending on what you are making and such, but these pistols are mostly one of a kind. What kind of manufacturing layout are we talking about? At what point on the process do these guns go from being one of many to one of a kind. Edited January 21, 2013 by JimmyZip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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