Jaxshooter Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) These smiths that do not give an approximate completion date and stick to it within reason do so because we allow it to happen. If you contact a smith regarding a new build and ask for a written contract or estimate regarding work to be done and approximate completion date and he says that he does not do that and you tell him thanks but no thanks. How long do you think they could operate like they do now? Would you leave your car at a dealer with a deposit to have the engine or transmission replaced without a written estimate or approximate completion date? Suppose you send your parts and a deposit usually 50% to a smith that is a one man shop and something happens to him and he can no longer work or worst yet dies. Say everyhting goes into his estate or his family argues over the division of his assets. Will you ever get your parts or money back? Also the big name smith that has a shop with apprentices as mentioned earlier that lets the apprentice build your gun and does not check the work or in some cases does not even know if the gun is 100 % reliable when it leaves the shop. We have all heard horror stories like these before. Why does it happen? Because we allow it. Edited January 21, 2013 by Jaxshooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I think it all depends on what you are looking for. If you want a car built by Chip Foose, you're going to get in line and you will get your car when he has time to work on it. Yes, you could have your car built by the local hot rod shop and have it in 2 months, but it would never be a Chip Foose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 If you wanted a car built by Boyd Coddington he would have given you an approximate start date and approximate completion date. If it was 3 years down the road and 24 months to finish it he would say so. Building a car brings into play a whole lot more manufacturers and suppliers that can cause delays than any gun you want built. We are also comparing something that cost $ 6-9000.00 to something that cost a hundred thousand dollars plus. My point was these smiths can be made to be reasonable and accountable just like other businesses if we make them do business like that or take our business elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 My point was these smiths can be made to be reasonable and accountable just like other businesses if we make them do business like that or take our business elsewhere. Good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastarget Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 My point was these smiths can be made to be reasonable and accountable just like other businesses if we make them do business like that or take our business elsewhere. Good luck with that. I am with RIIID on this one. The reason this will never work, is demand. They know someone is always willing to outlay the cash to jump in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 It truly amazes me just how people are convinced that some gunsmiths are worth the time or money. When I got the aforementioned gun from MC, I got quotes from several other and when they said 9 - 12 months, I moved on. I cannot believe that someone has 70 -100 people in line or in the case of those with a 3 year wait, 300+. But maybe they do and if so, good for them. I'd love to pick their brain and find out how they can convince people it is worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphamikefoxtrot Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Frankly, I don't think there's enough money in guns to have a serious manufacturing layout. Really? Tell that to Bobby at FGW or any other smith doing work right now building guns. Really, any manufacturing process can be streamlined depending on what you are making and such, but these pistols are mostly one of a kind. What kind of manufacturing layout are we talking about? At what point on the process do these guns go from being one of many to one of a kind. Pretty sure Bobby isn't a great example. He has said on here on more than one occasion that he isn't taking a salary out of his business. I agree with the previous poster. You can make a living at gun smithing, but really, how many wealthy gunsmiths do you know that got there by gunsmithing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick88 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 It truly amazes me just how people are convinced that some gunsmiths are worth the time or money. Exactly, but remember most of these guys are spare time smiths hence the long wait. Money is in repair when they catch up on that they go back to working on your custom build until more repairs come in then repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodrow1 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Most of the "wait times" being mentioned here are not periods of time during which one is waiting for work to be completed, they are the backlogs smiths currently have. In other words, if one were to contact one of the top artisans, the smith would not be able to start on it for X number of years, during which time, the gunowner keeps the pistol. Actual build time once one's turn arrived is usually a matter of months. Three years is an excessive amount of time for a smith to be in possession of a firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCReid Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Some interesting opinions on smiths. Personally I stake my reputation on every single gun that leaves my shop, there is no room for a mistake. With that being said, I do not give completion dates. I build guns to my standards, I will not build to a deadline. That simply would not be fair to me or my customer. My customer is paying for my best and they deserve it. If I try to rush a job trying meet a deadline, then will that customer really be getting my best......no. For what its worth, if I can build 10 guns in a year, then that would be a very productive year for me. Polize, thanks, and yes I probably spend way too much time fitting a grip safety. However, I do try to take some pride in my work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 (edited) Jeremy I will have a build from you one day. Top notch work! Come over on 1911 Addicts, check it out. Rogers, Chambers, and Harrison are also members there. Great forum! Edited January 22, 2013 by polizei1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tackman11 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Wow 3 years. 9 months for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knedrgr Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Just for a small frame of reference, it takes me 120 - 140 hours to build a gun. The 25 hours mentioned previously is simply unattainable building a gun to my standards. Rodgers and Rogers are in the same boat. Jeremy, base on the gun that I've seen you put out, I'm glad to hear those hours are being put in. The guns are amazing. Awesome to see you post here Jeremy! BTW: Have you guys seen the BTGS fit Jeremy is capable of? Oh my God! It's incredible! Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UW Mitch Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I've had custom knives on order for nearly a decade. Although I didn't have materials or a deposit with them, two knifemakers actually passed away before starting what I ordered. Maybe gunsmiths are different, but I'd imagine if you want something from a specific gunsmith, some may have this kind of wait. That being said, there's probably a good number of excellent smiths that wouldn't make you wait quite this long. ~Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knedrgr Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) There's also a difference between building a gun to run well, and building a gun that is both a looker and a well oil machine. Some examples that I've seen on full house customs: - straightening the lines on the slide. - blend the thumb safety's contour to match the frame's backstrap contour. - rewelding the frame's rails for perfect frame/slide fitting. - rewelding the frame's tangs for better BTGS blending. - dehoning and straightening the lines around the trigger guard. Most of the above are basically cosmetic work, but takes a long time to complete. Edited January 29, 2013 by knedrgr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) You need to put into perspective what you are getting built along with the time and cost. If all you need is a competition gun that is reliable and simply works but isn't going to win any fashion shows, then it will obviously take less time to build that kind of gun. If you want a perfectly built gun that is totally reliable and can serve as a show piece then that is going to take a lot longer to build. You also have to put the financial motivation of the builder into perspective. Competition gun builders that are churning out "Hammers" in a short amount of time are fully functional but are not show pieces. The "Hammer" builders are not going to be able to charge as much as a safe queen gun builder. The safe queen builders are probably charging 3 - 4 times as much as the "Hammer" builders. The "Hammer" builders HAVE TO churn through the work a lot faster than the safe queen builders to keep the lights on and food on the table. If you are a competition shooter that needs a "Hammer" built and go to a safe queen builder don't whine when you get quoted a multi-year lead time. If you are looking to get a safe queen built by a "Hammer" builder don't whine when you get it and its not show piece quality. Edited January 29, 2013 by CHA-LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 So who are these "hammer" builders? They build guns that RUN, and they do it quickly? I guess I havent heard of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 How long is too long? when you are waiting longer than what they estimated when you sent them the gun. If he told you 3 years up front, then thats what it takes... if he told you 6 months, then you are waiting 2.5 years too long. The rest of the world operates the same way, lead times are known in advance, and they expected not be exceeded. I think its not a lot to ask for a gunsmith to do the same. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 How long is too long? when you are waiting longer than what they estimated when you sent them the gun. If he told you 3 years up front, then thats what it takes... if he told you 6 months, then you are waiting 2.5 years too long. The rest of the world operates the same way, lead times are known in advance, and they expected not be exceeded. I think its not a lot to ask for a gunsmith to do the same. Mike. I'd agree with this. However, what do you do when that estimated timeline gets thrown out the window? Its been longer than the lead time originally given to you, but you only get excuses, and stories of all the problems that are creating delays. Should that be acceptable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.roberts Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 How long is too long? when you are waiting longer than what they estimated when you sent them the gun. If he told you 3 years up front, then thats what it takes... if he told you 6 months, then you are waiting 2.5 years too long. The rest of the world operates the same way, lead times are known in advance, and they expected not be exceeded. I think its not a lot to ask for a gunsmith to do the same. Mike. I'd agree with this. However, what do you do when that estimated timeline gets thrown out the window? Its been longer than the lead time originally given to you, but you only get excuses, and stories of all the problems that are creating delays. Should that be acceptable? I think a good response would be, "Get your rear in gear and build my gun or ship my parts back to me." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 So who are these "hammer" builders? They build guns that RUN, and they do it quickly? I guess I havent heard of them. Read through this thread, there have been multiple gunsmiths with very good reputations that have been listed which can turn around effective competition guns in only a month or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) So who are these "hammer" builders? They build guns that RUN, and they do it quickly? I guess I havent heard of them. Read through this thread, there have been multiple gunsmiths with very good reputations that have been listed which can turn around effective competition guns in only a month or two. Gans is the only one I've heard of so far. And you have to supply all the parts. Edited January 29, 2013 by Ssanders224 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polizei1 Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) Shay Akai's lead-time is usually 6-9 months, which is pretty short IMHO. Edited January 30, 2013 by polizei1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 I'd agree with this. However, what do you do when that estimated timeline gets thrown out the window? Its been longer than the lead time originally given to you, but you only get excuses, and stories of all the problems that are creating delays. Should that be acceptable? Sounds like he underestimated the job to begin with and is dragging you along... I'd be pissed and it wouldn't be acceptable to me... I guess how far into this thing are they? If they nothing is really done... I'd ask for my stuff back.. but if hes almost finished then I'd just suck it up and warn people in the future about them. Like I said, the whole world operates like this... I work in electrical contracting, things "getting there" on time is HUGE... if they are off, it screws schedules up and can cost a lot of money. You have to know how much time it takes to do something, and factor in the "typical" unknowns that get in the way. I think in lines of work where you "produce" things... your ability to deliver/estimate time is equally as important as the quality of work. If a gunsmith has a successful business then they know how long tasks take and can factor in all your "typical" unknowns. I don't think its a lot to ask them to estimate what it will take for "my job". I had Rich (RIIID) do bomars on my new single stack.. he told me up front he was busy and I'd be looking at _____ weeks.... Worked for me, and he delivered in that time frame. If I commit to having someone do anything for me... I would never question the pace they work at... I would only ask they they inform me of this ahead of time, so that don't find out 1/2 way through that its going to take 3 times longer than expected. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amac Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I thought 4 months was long. THREE YEARS! Hope it works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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