deacon12224 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) Does this rule ever get enforced? In looking at the equipment used at this years Nationals and at the local matches, it appears to me that a large percentage of competitors in Limited and Open division violate this rule. Every division has a 2 inch maximum. Appendix E2 has an example of how to measure the distance and in the example they come up with a measurement of 1 5/8 inches for what looks like a very basic IDPA type holster on a competition belt. Surely, the dropped and offset holsters that people run are going to add more than 3/8 of an inch to that mesurment. In addition, what are the penalties for failure? Rule 5.2.5.2 states that the competitor will be required to fix the problem if discovered. I presume that this occurs before the competitor has used the illegal equipment in a COF and it is discovered in the equipment check recommended in 6.2.3 that never happens. Rule 6.2.5.1 seems to indicate that if the equipment is used in a COF, and since even Open division requires a max of 2 inches from the belt, the competitor would shoot for no score. What say you? Edited January 14, 2013 by deacon12224 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juan Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I was approached at our sectional prior to shooting on this very issue.2 months later at nationals looked like most shooters were in violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Did you make it? 2" is a huge distance, most I've seen are at or a bit over 1" and that still looks like a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Do you measure from the grip, or the closet part of the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Does this rule ever get enforced? Yes. Most times it's been another competitor raising the issue, but I've seen one or two ROs ask the question, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Did you make it? 2" is a huge distance, most I've seen are at or a bit over 1" and that still looks like a lot. Not really. When using the Dropped offset, it is very easy to go over 2". A lot of people need to use washers as shims to get inside the 2". Do you measure from the grip, or the closet part of the gun? Rule doesn't mention a specific point. In accordance with Rule 5.2.5, the maximum lateral distance of the handgun and mag/speedloaders from the inner side of the belt is specified in Appendix D, Item 10 So based on that, I would say closest part of the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacon12224 Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 (edited) Did you make it? 2" is a huge distance, most I've seen are at or a bit over 1" and that still looks like a lot. Not really. When using the Dropped offset, it is very easy to go over 2". A lot of people need to use washers as shims to get inside the 2". Do you measure from the grip, or the closet part of the gun? Rule doesn't mention a specific point. In accordance with Rule 5.2.5, the maximum lateral distance of the handgun and mag/speedloaders from the inner side of the belt is specified in Appendix D, Item 10 So based on that, I would say closest part of the gun. The rule states that you measure — from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device. I take "body-side surface" to mean the the side of the slide and not the safety or cocking handle. 2 inches is not much when a lot of competion belts are nearly an inch thick when you include the inner and outer belt. I bet if you put a tape on your current rig and measure from the inside of the inner belt to the side of the slide, you will be surprised. Edited January 14, 2013 by deacon12224 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerome Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Does the "body-side surface of the handgun" include the thumb safety? ---------------------------- 5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner: — perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt — from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Look at appendix E2, figure A. I say the nearest part of the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Look at appendix E2, figure A. I say the nearest part of the gun. Me, too. I'm not looking to hit the competitor over the head with the rulebook. If I can find a way to get someone "inside the lines", that's what I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I take "body-side surface" to mean the the side of the slide and not the safety or cocking handle. Not me. I consider the closest part of the gun period. I bet if you put a tape on your current rig and measure from the inside of the inner belt to the side of the slide, you will be surprised.d lose that bet. In my case you would lose that bet. Mine is about 1.75 inches or so. I saw the RM make corrections at the 09 IPSC nationals. The RM for the Battle in the Bluegrass mentioned it in the shooters meeting and said he would be looking at everybody's rig. So yes, it get's checked. Match officials don't walk up to every shooter and whip out a ruler but they do look at rigs and if they think it needs checked they do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfchorn Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 "Body-Side" means the side of the gun closest to the competitor's body. It has nothing to do with what part of the gun gets measured. Since safeties, magwells, gas pedals and slide rackers are part of the gun, it won't be an issue for most limited and open competitors. Production competitors may want to look at any holster offset to avoid an unplesant surprise at a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 There was a thread on this a while back... can't find it now. As others have said it is any surface of the gun (safeties etc count). The question that I have not seen clarified is that every measurement I have seen or heard discussed is above the belt. The way most people cant the top of the gun outward moves the bottom of the gun inward. I doubt there is a gun out there that has the front of its slide more than 2" away. I know the example in the appendix is showing a measurement above the belt but a literal reading of the rule refers to "any" part of the gun which includes the front of the slide. At Nats a couple years ago a guy on our squad got tagged because his DOH put the grip of his Glock below the height of the top of his belt. RO would not allow him to start the COF. We worked with the holster until he was in compliance and he was then allowed to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 There was a thread on this a while back... can't find it now. As others have said it is any surface of the gun (safeties etc count). The question that I have not seen clarified is that every measurement I have seen or heard discussed is above the belt. The way most people cant the top of the gun outward moves the bottom of the gun inward. I doubt there is a gun out there that has the front of its slide more than 2" away. I know the example in the appendix is showing a measurement above the belt but a literal reading of the rule refers to "any" part of the gun which includes the front of the slide. 5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner: — perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt — from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 5.2.5 Where a Division specifies a maximum distance that a competitor’s handgun and equipment may extend away from a competitor’s belt, the measurement shall be taken in the following manner: — perpendicular to the belt at the point of attachment to the belt — from the inner most surface of the belt equipment (against the pants/body) to the nearest body-side surface of the handgun and/or any reloading device. Since my holster uses a loop around the entire belt, that means that the nearest body-side surface of the handgun occurs at the bottom of my belt, as that is "at the point of attachment to the belt" where the gun is the closest. The fact that the gun is in the holster at that point doesn't change the fact that it is still closer there than anywhere else. ....that all being said, the illustration shows the top of the point of attachment, and that is where the measurement should be taken---according to the illustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Much better said Thomas. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Gear does get measured. I got measured at last years nationals or was about to get measured. What gotblooked at on me though was how far forward my gear was. So yeah they ate looking. But like some have daughter aren't trying to beat you with the rule book. Now other competitors.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Gear does get measured. I got measured at last year's nationals, or was about to get measured. What got looked at on me, though, was how far forward my gear was. So yeah they are looking. But, like some have said, they aren't trying to beat you with the rule book. Now other competitors.... Desmartphoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Gear does get measured. I got measured at last year's nationals, or was about to get measured. What got looked at on me, though, was how far forward my gear was. So yeah they are looking. But, like some have said, they aren't trying to beat you with the rule book. Now other competitors.... Desmartphoned. Lol woops!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 I take "body-side surface" to mean the the side of the slide and not the safety or cocking handle. Not me. I consider the closest part of the gun period. I bet if you put a tape on your current rig and measure from the inside of the inner belt to the side of the slide, you will be surprised.d lose that bet. In my case you would lose that bet. Mine is about 1.75 inches or so. I saw the RM make corrections at the 09 IPSC nationals. The RM for the Battle in the Bluegrass mentioned it in the shooters meeting and said he would be looking at everybody's rig. So yes, it get's checked. Match officials don't walk up to every shooter and whip out a ruler but they do look at rigs and if they think it needs checked they do so. Wow, you were actually listening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Gary I consider you the EF Hutton of the sport. When you speak everybody listens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwana Six-Gun Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 There have bee a lot of good replies here, but one thing was not answered from the original poster. If the holster issue cannot be corrected, or the competitor has shot several stages when the problem is discovered, what is the ruling? Do they re-shoot their previous stages, and or, if not correctable, do they shoot for no score? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 I'm not a rule expert but.... Since its a rule across all divisions and the shooter already shit a stage I would say they shoot for no score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Gear does get measured. I got measured at last year's nationals, or was about to get measured. What got looked at on me, though, was how far forward my gear was. So yeah they are looking. But, like some have said, they aren't trying to beat you with the rule book. Now other competitors.... Desmartphoned. Lol woops!! Lollipops !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 ....shooter already shit a stage I would say they shoot for no score. I've done that once or twice. I knew I zeroed the stage, didn't know it meant the whole match went for no score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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