Flexmoney Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 There have bee a lot of good replies here, but one thing was not answered from the original poster. If the holster issue cannot be corrected, or the competitor has shot several stages when the problem is discovered, what is the ruling? Do they re-shoot their previous stages, and or, if not correctable, do they shoot for no score? I'm not a rule expert but.... Since its a rule across all divisions and the shooter already shOt a stage I would say they shoot for no score. I don't know about going retroactive. I'd think you (RO) would need to witness the infraction during the course of fire? These would seem to apply? 6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare one Division for score. Match Officials should check holsters and other competitor equipment for compliance with the declared Division prior to the competitor making an attempt at any of the courses of fire. 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. 9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been ompleted, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Kind of an old thread...but I just measured my gear. I've got a Bladetech, Comp-Tac, and DAA (all DOH) - on all of them, if you go from the inside of the inner to the closest surface of the gun measured directly perpendicular from the TOP of the belt, I'm right at 2" (but I don't like to be that close.) However, if you take that same measurement directly perpendicular from the BOTTOM of the belt, I'm comfortably under 2". This is because all of these holsters have the gun slightly canted in toward my leg. The picture in the rulebook shows the measurement happening at the TOP of the belt...but then there's sort of a disclaimer that says that the picture doesn't show the maximum allowable measurement. The wording in the rule seems to not explain whether the measurement happens at the TOP or the BOTTOM of the belt - just says "at the point of attachment," which seems like it could mean either the top or the bottom... Anybody have any idea if the measurement HAS TO be taken at the top of the belt? Or can it be taken from the bottom as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Kind of an old thread...but I just measured my gear. I've got a Bladetech, Comp-Tac, and DAA (all DOH) - on all of them, if you go from the inside of the inner to the closest surface of the gun measured directly perpendicular from the TOP of the belt, I'm right at 2" (but I don't like to be that close.) However, if you take that same measurement directly perpendicular from the BOTTOM of the belt, I'm comfortably under 2". This is because all of these holsters have the gun slightly canted in toward my leg. The picture in the rulebook shows the measurement happening at the TOP of the belt...but then there's sort of a disclaimer that says that the picture doesn't show the maximum allowable measurement. The wording in the rule seems to not explain whether the measurement happens at the TOP or the BOTTOM of the belt - just says "at the point of attachment," which seems like it could mean either the top or the bottom... Anybody have any idea if the measurement HAS TO be taken at the top of the belt? Or can it be taken from the bottom as well? RM discretion..... See Sections 5.2 (in its entirety) and 6.2.5, esp. 6.2.5.1..... If you're at 2 inches, perhaps a slight adjustment would be a good idea.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 I don't see anywhere in 5.2 and 6.2.5 where any mention is made of whether or not the perpendicular measurement of the gun can be taken from the BOTTOM of the belt. It just talks about the measurement being perpendicular from the point of attachment of the holster/belt...it's attached at the top AND the bottom of the belt. I'm not trying to be a smart ass or game the rules - the holsters I've got are all stock holsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 The point Nik is trying to make, is that the competitor doesn't choose where to take the measurement, the RM does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpa5oh Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Okay...and I emailed the DNROI, too...a little bit of a confusing back and forth - I asked the question I asked above and he responded in reference to the bottom of the HOLSTER (where the holster touches the leg)...when I told him I was not talking about the bottom of the holster (which couldn't be perpendicular to any part of the belt anyhow unless the handle of the gun was up in your armpit) he responded back as if he'd already answered my question of having to do the measurement at the top of the belt. I still don't think he understood what I was asking...in any event, I'll do whatever I have to do to get the holsters measuring within the 2" even if measured from the top of the belt. I assume that'll require heating and bending... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Depending on the mount, you can remove the bottom screw and install a spacer. That will tilt the top of the holster in a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 The point Nik is trying to make, is that the competitor doesn't choose where to take the measurement, the RM does. Ding. We have a winner..... I don't go looking to move people to open, but I don't think you'd find an RM who'd be terribly receptive to you telling him "you need to measure right here to see that I'm in compliance...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 This all begs the question: If a Bladetech DOH has been approved for production division (specifically a DOH for CZ SP01 Shadow) by the NROI, why should any changes have to be made to it period? NROI says it's legal, end of story, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 There's an approved Production holster list now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 There is no approved holster. The rulebook gives measurements and metrics. If your holster meets those requirements it is good to go regardless of what name it bears. If it doesn't meet the metrics then that is a different problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) It has come up for discussion a few times at local matches and I am trying to get clarification before a major match. I have the new Ghost Stinger drop offset holster and am looking to use it for production. Reading the rule book over and over a few times the holster seems to meet every requirement for production legal: 2" or less from inside of gun to inside of belt, 1/2" or less from top of kydex to the ejection port, the holster is no more or less suitable than a Blade tech DOH w/ Teclock attachment. The drop offset type holster is allowed in production Division as long as the heel of the butt of the gun is above the belt per 5.2.7.2 and the rest of the criteria you listed is met. Edited March 30, 2013 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92558entry1063218 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92558&hl=doh&st=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Grumpy, the DOH isn't legal..... ....or illegal.... because there's no holster list. What there is is a way to measure whether or not a competitor is in compliance -- and that's the only thing that matters. That ruling isn't permanent either -- if I measure your gear and you're in compliance, you're in compliance at that moment. That doesn't mean that on the next stage, after adjusting the holster, if I measure again you won't be out of compliance and going to open..... Realistically if you're close to but inside the allowed norm, it's likely you'll never be measured. If you're trying to push it hard, then someone might take a look.... If you're at 2 inches -- there's no wiggle room if you're measured -- it's the equivalent of planning for a load that averages 125 pf. If your chrono sample is comprised of rounds at the bottom of the standard deviation, that could be bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 That doesn't mean that on the next stage, after adjusting the holster, if I measure again you won't be out of compliance and going to open..... Just to pick nits, he wouldn't be going to Open. Open has the same 2" requirement (App. D1, Item #10) He'd be shooting for no score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Too bad the measurement part of the rule is so open to interpretation. Nearest part of the gun, yet the pic shows at the top of the belt. Hey, pictures and video are not admissible as evidence, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Nice try, Grump. No. Wait. It wasn't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 That ruling isn't permanent either -- if I measure your gear and you're in compliance, you're in compliance at that moment. That doesn't mean that on the next stage, after adjusting the holster, if I measure again you won't be out of compliance and going to open..... Realistically if you're close to but inside the allowed norm, it's likely you'll never be measured. If you're trying to push it hard, then someone might take a look.... So what I'm hearing is 'realistically, you might be out of compliance, but we won't ding you on it unless we feel like it.' I think most people want to fully comply with the rules, and also want to make sure that the rig they use, that 100's of other people also use, won't cause them to get dinged because their body shape is different or the CRO had a bad day, or whatever. I figure I'll just give up the .00008 that I could gain with a racier holster on the draw and try to focus on shooting like less of a spazz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 That ruling isn't permanent either -- if I measure your gear and you're in compliance, you're in compliance at that moment. That doesn't mean that on the next stage, after adjusting the holster, if I measure again you won't be out of compliance and going to open..... Realistically if you're close to but inside the allowed norm, it's likely you'll never be measured. If you're trying to push it hard, then someone might take a look.... So what I'm hearing is 'realistically, you might be out of compliance, but we won't ding you on it unless we feel like it.' I think most people want to fully comply with the rules, and also want to make sure that the rig they use, that 100's of other people also use, won't cause them to get dinged because their body shape is different or the CRO had a bad day, or whatever. I figure I'll just give up the .00008 that I could gain with a racier holster on the draw and try to focus on shooting like less of a spazz. That's not anywhere near what I heard (OK, read). Nik will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he was trying to say that if someone measured within spec on one stage, and then adjusted the holster enough to raise a question, they could be measured again and possible not make it. I'm pretty sure Nik would hold to the rulebook if a competitor measued outside of the allowable limit, first or last try. He doesn't, on a whim, pick and choose which rules to enforce as an RM. The rulebook has already made those choices for him. If it's between the covers, he will make the best call he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 (edited) If a competitor moves or shifts his gear other than at the direction of a range official? Unsportsman like? Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster or magazine pouch, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the “Standby” command Edited March 31, 2013 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 If a competitor moves or shifts his gear other than at the direction of a range official? Unsportsman like? From a TV era long ago and far away... Congratulations! "You're Queen Range Master For A Day!" You make the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Speaking for myself and I hope every other member of the RO corps we are not playing "gotcha". Helping a shooter to prevent a problem is just common sense. I remember watching a one time National Champion start to load magazines in a safety area at the Fredricksburg Nationals. Fortunately I was close enough to yell loud enough to scare the crap out of him and get him to stop what he was getting ready to do. I didn't stand there and wait to DQ him, I prevented the situation from happening. Now 30 seconds later and it would have been a different situation, unfortunately. Treat people like you would like to be treated, up to the point they won't let you, and you can't go too far wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 That doesn't mean that on the next stage, after adjusting the holster, if I measure again you won't be out of compliance and going to open..... Just to pick nits, he wouldn't be going to Open. Open has the same 2" requirement (App. D1, Item #10) He'd be shooting for no score. I knew that! I just forgot about it..... I railed against having that requirement for Open -- I figure if holsters located 2 feet away are the ticket, open shooter's should get to discover that..... And there should be a place for violators in other divisions..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 That ruling isn't permanent either -- if I measure your gear and you're in compliance, you're in compliance at that moment. That doesn't mean that on the next stage, after adjusting the holster, if I measure again you won't be out of compliance and going to open..... Realistically if you're close to but inside the allowed norm, it's likely you'll never be measured. If you're trying to push it hard, then someone might take a look.... So what I'm hearing is 'realistically, you might be out of compliance, but we won't ding you on it unless we feel like it.' I think most people want to fully comply with the rules, and also want to make sure that the rig they use, that 100's of other people also use, won't cause them to get dinged because their body shape is different or the CRO had a bad day, or whatever. I figure I'll just give up the .00008 that I could gain with a racier holster on the draw and try to focus on shooting like less of a spazz. No, not at all. I don't play favorites, or pick on anyone..... Body size does enter into it a little. I use a Comp-Tac beltfeed for my first four mags (Glock 34/5). I've advised skinny friends who wanted one for the G21 to measure carefully, as the 2 inch limit might come into play with the fatter mags of the 21.... Gear selection does matter, and ultimately it's up to the competitor to determine if his gear is legit..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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