Wish list of Rule changes

[deerassassin22]

The card idea thats pretty interesting you got any examples of that might bring that up to the guys at my club.

[Trader]

I shouldn't get involved but .....

1) Get rid of the rule against round dumping, it can be hard to call correctly and half the time is self correcting.

2) Require fault lines to clearly define cover. It's to subjective to call fairly 100% of the time as it is now.

3) Move ALL striker fired pistols into ESP, leaving SSP for true double action pistols only.

4) Make ESP and CDP rules identical except for the following:

a) ESP 10 rd mag's, CDP 8rd mags

ESP 125 power factor, CDP 165 power factor

c) Approve all calibers for ESP and CDP with a .355" bore or larger

5) Raise the standards for becoming a SOI, and formalize the training to become a SO.

6) Create a clear route to become a DM other then HQ randoming selecting people (make it earnable), and properly monitor it with monthly updating.

7) Formalize the classification system, require the scores be submitted to HQ, and properly monitor and update the classification system monthly.

8) Only allow the difference in classification in different divsions to vary by one step except for DM's. If DM in one division, should be DM in all divisions.

9) Allow knee pads and cleats, these are safety items just like ear and eye protection.

10) Get rid of the point's system for the World Shoot.

All of the above.

[jmbaccolyte]

Have major and minor scoring in ESP. I have to load my .40 S&W down to 695 fps to hit the power floor of 125,000 with a 180 grain bullet, but the top load on Hodgdon's website with this bullet is 1,159 fps, which is 208,000. If we assume that "The goal is to compete with “service type” ammunition, not light target ammunition." Like the rule book says, then shouldn't the power floor be based on something closer to say 180,000, which would be a 180 grain bullet at 1,000 fps?

That said, I wouldn't have a problem going to a power floor based on energy instead of momentum, which wouldn't disadvantage the 9mm as much. I still think though that there should be major and minor scoring in ESP.

Am I the only one who thinks this is an issue? I wouldn't have a problem if CDP would allow my .40 S&W, though. Until then, I guess I'll just stay with "service type ammunition" even though it means I'm penalizing myself in competition for doing what seems to be be more in spirit with the rule book.

[Joe4d]

I think I have brought this up before. IDPA is suppossed to be about defensive shooting and carry guns. Then why are no carry guns even close to being competitive ?

CDP keep it without the arbitrary caliber restriction. Major is Major.

ESP keep it.

SSP scrap it in favor of carry pistol. Make the box 1 inch shorter. Maybe look at the weight something along the lines of an alloy 1911 commander, or glock 23. Provide a place for actual carry guns to compete. ANd NO I am NOT talking BUG side matches.

Look at the ESP and SSP times. They just arnt much of a difference and many people are shooting the same guns. I dont see the point in separating trigger actions.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

The card idea thats pretty interesting you got any examples of that might bring that up to the guys at my club.

The simplest way to use playing cards as a randomizer is to take a normal IDPA stage and to replace each target with two targets, one with a red painted head and one with a black painted head. Just make sure there's no pattern to which is which; don't put all the black targets to the left, or all above, or whatever; mix 'em up.

Then, at the start of the stage, the shooter is told to turn over cards from a deck. When the buzzer goes off, whichever color is up, that color is the target color; the others are non-threats. (To make things more interesting, you can invert it: the color that's up is the non-threat color.)

You can make things more complicated by using all four suits, rather than just the two colors.

[tackdr1ver]

I think the other divisions were just an afterthought after CDP. CDP was obviously created around a certain gun maker's product line. The other divisions were for "those other guys" and that's that. I just think IDPA could go a lot farther if some of the restrictions and arcane rules were abolished.

I would love to see more crossover competition from IPSC/USPSA 3 Gun shooters etc shooting IDPA too. It would certainly take IDPA competition to a whole new level with a larger pool of exceptional shooters in the mix. I believe that we may see some drastic changes in coming years from IDPA. Last years IDPA nationals were held the same time as USPSA nationals, notice how this year they aren't?

I just love to shoot, no matter what the game is. Do I like all of IDPA rules? no. Do I go out and have fun anyway? Yes, when there isn't a uspsa match to shoot.

[jmbaccolyte]

I think I have brought this up before. IDPA is suppossed to be about defensive shooting and carry guns. Then why are no carry guns even close to being competitive ?

CDP keep it without the arbitrary caliber restriction. Major is Major.

ESP keep it.

SSP scrap it in favor of carry pistol. Make the box 1 inch shorter. Maybe look at the weight something along the lines of an alloy 1911 commander, or glock 23. Provide a place for actual carry guns to compete. ANd NO I am NOT talking BUG side matches.

Look at the ESP and SSP times. They just arnt much of a difference and many people are shooting the same guns. I dont see the point in separating trigger actions.

This would work for me, but would you limit my single action, double stack .40 to eight rounds in the mag instead of fourteen? I realize that IDPA isn't supposed to be an equipment battle, but on the other hand, if a guy chooses to carry magazines that hold 7 or 8 rounds shouldn't he practice reloading his pistol more than the guy who chooses magazines that hold 12-15 rounds?

[Joe4d]

In what division ? CDP is a protected place for 45 acp 1911's to compete. No rule will ever be made that makes a 1911 45 compete with better guns.

In ESP maintain status quo 10 round mags.

[Merlin Orr]

<snip> No rule will ever be made that makes a 1911 45 compete with better guns. <Snip>

Man, I was totally with you until the above.....

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

In what division ? CDP is a protected place for 45 acp 1911's to compete. No rule will ever be made that makes a 1911 45 compete with better guns.

In ESP maintain status quo 10 round mags.

Since SSP and ESP already have arbitrarily low division capacities (10+1), would people object to lowering their division capacity to match CDP's (8+1)?

With something like Major and Minor scoring, all the semiautos could compete together.

[Onagoth]

1) Scrap the MG rules, they make absolutely no sense

2) Allow cleats and knee-pads

3) Allow more movement

4) Allow fault lines

5) Round dumping is impossible to enforce

[RePete]

1) Scrap the MG rules, they make absolutely no sense

2) Allow cleats and knee-pads

3) Allow more movement

4) Allow fault lines

5) Round dumping is impossible to enforce

3

Now you want to make it IPSC/USPSA.

[John Z Sr]

I shouldn't get involved but .....

1) Get rid of the rule against round dumping, it can be hard to call correctly and half the time is self correcting.

2) Require fault lines to clearly define cover. It's to subjective to call fairly 100% of the time as it is now.

3) Move ALL striker fired pistols into ESP, leaving SSP for true double action pistols only.

4) Make ESP and CDP rules identical except for the following:

a) ESP 10 rd mag's, CDP 8rd mags

ESP 125 power factor, CDP 165 power factor

c) Approve all calibers for ESP and CDP with a .355" bore or larger

5) Raise the standards for becoming a SOI, and formalize the training to become a SO.

6) Create a clear route to become a DM other then HQ randoming selecting people (make it earnable), and properly monitor it with monthly updating.

7) Formalize the classification system, require the scores be submitted to HQ, and properly monitor and update the classification system monthly.

8) Only allow the difference in classification in different divsions to vary by one step except for DM's. If DM in one division, should be DM in all divisions.

9) Allow knee pads and cleats, these are safety items just like ear and eye protection.

10) Get rid of the point's system for the World Shoot.

All of the above.

Nice list, why not just shoot USPSA, have more fun and be compliant at the same time????? Just a thought.

[Joe4d]

<snip> No rule will ever be made that makes a 1911 45 compete with better guns. <Snip>

Man, I was totally with you until the above.....

we can be nostalgic all we want, but look at it logically. If a 45 1911 is so great why do all the action pistol sports have special categories for it ? Why does it not compete heads up in limited USPSA, or ESP IDPA ? Simply because it would get smoked by newer better designs.

People are nostalgic though so we create a protected division for fans to compete and only have to shoot against like handicapped shooters.

[juan]

<snip> No rule will ever be made that makes a 1911 45 compete with better guns. <Snip>

Man, I was totally with you until the above.....

we can be nostalgic all we want, but look at it logically. If a 45 1911 is so great why do all the action pistol sports have special categories for it ? Why does it not compete heads up in limited USPSA, or ESP IDPA ? Simply because it would get smoked by newer better designs.

People are nostalgic though so we create a protected division for fans to compete and only have to shoot against like handicapped shooters.

A 1911 can compete very nicly in L-10

[Jim Watson]

Works well in IDPA ESP, too.

Midrange .45 ACP doesn't kick much and those big holes score well.

I have some single stack magazines that hold 9 .45s and fit The Box, also a STI buildup similar to Eagle that gets me up to 10+1 just like my 9mm.

Hardly obsolete.

[motosapiens]

well then, if 1911's can compete in existing divisions, let's scrap the 8 round limit and just make cdp a 10-round major (165pf) division. Let guys with service 40's run real 40 ammo as if it were a real-world based sport instead of a game that rewards mousefart loads.

[Seeker]

well then, if 1911's can compete in existing divisions, let's scrap the 8 round limit and just make cdp a 10-round major (165pf) division. Let guys with service 40's run real 40 ammo as if it were a real-world based sport instead of a game that rewards mousefart loads.

As long as the .45 1911 CDP shooter can use a 10 round mag, I don't see the problem. Oh yeah, the fitting in the box thing and the "Is this how you carry it?" thing may be an issue.

In reference to the "obsolete" comment. I'd like a show of hands for those that compete and win using a 9mm 1911 in ESP.

IMHO, Since IDPA is capacity limited, singe stack is an ideal platform.

[usmc1974]

My IDPA number is AO1668, the rules have changed in a BIG way. In the 90's it was realistic holsters, guns and ammo. Back then you had to play like it was for real, and you was taking fire. Today not so much. I used a Colt officers a Don Hume inside the waistban holster an double magholder. 230 hardball ammo. Just a thought.

[Joe_Atlanta]

In CDP and ESP dump the "cone" barrel restriction. Bunch of affordable carry guns these days have them as standard.

[usmc1974]

why does it say moved? moved to where?

[ima45dv8]

why does it say moved? moved to where?

Uhhh...to the IDPA RULES Forum?

It has a certain ring to it, don't you think?

[RePete]

why does it say moved? moved to where?

Uhhh...to the IDPA RULES Forum?

It has a certain ring to it, don't you think?

Actually it;s the RULING REQUESTS, bt don't forget to use the correct format as specified in the fist the thread.

FWIW. The Tiger Teams are not watching this thread. In at my Sisters and she is one of the facilitators and told me when I asked her.

[usmc1974]

why does it say moved? moved to where?

Uhhh...to the IDPA RULES Forum?

It has a certain ring to it, don't you think?

Well, OK but only if engauged from cover. Moved from where then...

[Chuck D]

the "crossover" argument for lack of a better word is a non-starter.

A CDP 1911 works perfectly in USPSA's SS Division.

A DA/SA or Safe Action pistol works perfectly in IDPA's SSP and USPSA's Production Division.

I could go on and on...

There is a belief that IDPA through the development process should become USPSA Jr. I believe that is NOT what the Tiger Teams intend to do.

If you like hi-cap mags, knee pads, cleats and hate concealment vests, shooting from cover, and loading down to 10 rounds...shoot USPSA.

Every shooting sport develops over time and adapts to changing market conditions. As long as the basic principles such as concealment garments, use of cover, carry type holsters and related equipment continue to form the basis of IDPA then the sport will not only survive but thrive.

It's prudent for IDPA and others to realize that many of its members join and shoot IDPA because of the above listed principles and do not want USPSA Jr.