Wish list of Rule changes

[Joe4d]

That's a good idea. Have a few divisions based on size of pistol. If a Glock 19 or 23 could compete against other similar guns without having to worry about someone showing up with a G34 we might see more of them.

Think I said that severalpages ago, eliminate SSP, change it to Compact pistol put a 1" strip of wood in the box, and have a lower weight limit The current SSP full size guns would move to ESP

[Punkin Chunker]

That's a good idea. Have a few divisions based on size of pistol. If a Glock 19 or 23 could compete against other similar guns without having to worry about someone showing up with a G34 we might see more of them.

Think I said that severalpages ago, eliminate SSP, change it to Compact pistol put a 1" strip of wood in the box, and have a lower weight limit The current SSP full size guns would move to ESP

Would you hold the power factor at 105,000, or drop it to around 90,000 to accomodate the .380s?

[Boss1622]

I like this idea, but keep the 125 power factor.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Would you hold the power factor at 105,000, or drop it to around 90,000 to accomodate the .380s?

I wouldn't drop the power factor to accommodate .380s in a compact division, but I would in a subcompact division.

How much less velocity does a 9mm round have coming out of a Glock 19 vs. a 17 or 34, by the way?

And should IDPA stick to a momentum-based measure of "power"?

[RePete]

IDPA doesn't use Power Factor, it uses POWER FLOOR.

We have enough divisions now, let's use the KISS principal and not complicate things.

[skdmrklcy]

I am holding off on IDPA for a bit while they work on the rules etc that seems to be in process atm. I also can't seem to get anyone to go with me to the local match...

A few things I would like to see though from a new guy just reading the book...

A lot of things are down right confusing or not specific enough, most of this has been covered.

Ditch Round Dumping rules and Mag Retention.. or at least tweak it.

I like the idea of grouping all the Striker Fired guns, but then it seems like you would have more divisions to really be "fair" about it. Hammer Fired DA/SA, Stock Striker Fired, and Enhanced Service Pistol. As I do not see moving Joe with a stock Glock 17 into the same division as Bob who has a Glock 34 with some sub 1 lb super trigger and magwell as really all that great, not to mention Ricardo and his 2011 Eagle 9mm.

Another thing I would love to see.... either in IDPA or USPSA... I think it would be rather fun to have a division were I can shoot my carry gun. The way I would actually carry it. I mean if we want to go with real life I have never only stuck 10 rounds in my 17 round mags. Now I see no practical way to pull this off given state limits etc.. but it would still be fun. I am actually thinking of shooting my M&P FS in USPSA Limited some just to try it. I am well aware I will not win.. but I will not anyway.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

IDPA doesn't use Power Factor, it uses POWER FLOOR.

Yes, yes, power floor -- totally different.

More seriously though, should IDPA stick to a momentum-based measure of "power"? Kinetic energy seems like it would make more sense -- and it's more proportional with the amount of powder in a cartridge, I believe -- unless your goal is to favor .45s, which isn't an issue if you have a separate division just for that.

We have enough divisions now, let's use the KISS principal and not complicate things.

I actually agree that we should fold as many divisions as possible together -- classes, too. We could do that with a decent handicapping system.

[hkguy]

Would you hold the power factor at 105,000, or drop it to around 90,000 to accomodate the .380s?

I wouldn't drop the power factor to accommodate .380s in a compact division, but I would in a subcompact division.

How much less velocity does a 9mm round have coming out of a Glock 19 vs. a 17 or 34, by the way?

And should IDPA stick to a momentum-based measure of "power"?

From my P30L - 4.45 in barrel and USPc 9mm 3.85 in barrel, i lose 5 pf (133pf to 128pf) using the same 124gr load.

personally i done see how making a separate division for "compact guns" is going to make the big of a difference long term. i would put money down that bob vogal could turn in similar times using a G34, a G17, and a G19. lets be honest, why would you run out and buy a g26 if a G19 is the "longest" gun allowed in the compact division? then are people going to cry foul that they cant be competitive with a G26 and demand a new division for that gun? Barrel length/sight radius is not what makes the difference, the shooter is, plain and simple.

[RePete]

IDPA doesn't use Power Factor, it uses POWER FLOOR.

Yes, yes, power floor -- totally different.

The math is different, we don't divide by 1000!

If we are going to talk about IDPA, then let's use the correct terminology.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

From my P30L - 4.45 in barrel and USPc 9mm 3.85 in barrel, i lose 5 pf (133pf to 128pf) using the same 124gr load.

So, the "power" (momentum) of a pistol round drops ~3% with a 13% reduction in barrel length. Not much.

personally i done see how making a separate division for "compact guns" is going to make the big of a difference long term. i would put money down that bob vogal could turn in similar times using a G34, a G17, and a G19. lets be honest, why would you run out and buy a g26 if a G19 is the "longest" gun allowed in the compact division? then are people going to cry foul that they cant be competitive with a G26 and demand a new division for that gun? Barrel length/sight radius is not what makes the difference, the shooter is, plain and simple.

Yes, Bob Vogel with a pocket pistol could outperform almost anyone with a race gun. That does not mean that a pocket pistol is better than -- or just as good as -- a race gun. There isn't one thing that makes the difference; there are multiple things -- namely skill and equipment.

Many people carry a compact pistol but also buy a full-size pistol for competition. It seems reasonable to offer a division for true carry guns -- and the difference between a compact gun and a full-size gun is greater than the difference between, say, an XD (ESP) and a Glock (SSP).

[hkguy]

From my P30L - 4.45 in barrel and USPc 9mm 3.85 in barrel, i lose 5 pf (133pf to 128pf) using the same 124gr load.

So, the "power" (momentum) of a pistol round drops ~3% with a 13% reduction in barrel length. Not much.

personally i done see how making a separate division for "compact guns" is going to make the big of a difference long term. i would put money down that bob vogal could turn in similar times using a G34, a G17, and a G19. lets be honest, why would you run out and buy a g26 if a G19 is the "longest" gun allowed in the compact division? then are people going to cry foul that they cant be competitive with a G26 and demand a new division for that gun? Barrel length/sight radius is not what makes the difference, the shooter is, plain and simple.

Yes, Bob Vogel with a pocket pistol could outperform almost anyone with a race gun. That does not mean that a pocket pistol is better than -- or just as good as -- a race gun. There isn't one thing that makes the difference; there are multiple things -- namely skill and equipment.

Many people carry a compact pistol but also buy a full-size pistol for competition. It seems reasonable to offer a division for true carry guns -- and the difference between a compact gun and a full-size gun is greater than the difference between, say, an XD (ESP) and a Glock (SSP).

define "true" carry guns. i know people that carry daily their government 1911, 10mm 1911's, sig 226's, HK USP's, G29's, 4 in .357's. and on down the line to Kahr CM9's and j frames. so to say a division is for "true" carry guns only seems difficult to define it in those terms.

in most cases the shooter is losing roughly an inch of barrel length and sight radius and an few oz in weight. when i went from a P30 to a P30L the only thing that really changed besides the extra sight radius and barrel length was it made the 20+ yard shots easier. felt recoil was about the same too, controls, trigger, grip, etc were all the same. For some shooters there will obviously be more "felt" recoil due to the fps loss of the shorter barrel but that can be overcome through practice.

so this compact division is created, every one that shoots it will be making the same mods to their "little/compact" race gun that they made on their "big" race guns. so now you have a G34 and G19 that are identical internally. at the club level you might see a greater difference in scores but at the state/regional/national level i doubt you will see much difference in scores between esp/ssp when looking at top tier shooters. now if you wanted to make the BUG division a full blown division and not just a side match, you might have better luck and allow those shooters to utilize an additional magazine/speed loader. however i feel you will get about as much participation in that as ESR.

[motosapiens]

so this compact division is created, every one that shoots it will be making the same mods to their "little/compact" race gun that they made on their "big" race guns.

This is a good point. I suspect before long you would have lots of people with carry-sized competition-tuned race guns that were smaller, but not really suited to defensive carry for many people.

Maybe it makes more sense for us to keep doing what many of us are doing, carry a compact and compete with a similar full-sized, and save the super-light trigger work and fiber-optic sights for the race gun. I guess that gives me an excuse to purchase a P01.

It wouldn't bother me however to see a sliding scale for power FLOOOOOR tho, so that folks who choose to shoot their compact guns from time to time wouldn't have to load hotter and be at even more of a disadvantage. OTOH, it's still probably a lot softer than SD ammo.

Edited April 5, 2012 by motosapiens

[jason237m]

Maybe it makes more sense for us to keep doing what many of us are doing, carry a compact and compete with a similar full-sized, and save the super-light trigger work and fiber-optic sights for the race gun. I guess that gives me an excuse to purchase a P01.

For many of the production guns you can buy a compact version for carry and buy a competition model for the weekends (i.e. M&P Pro & M&P Compact). It's not a perfect solution, but the feel and the insticts for your competition gun would translate pretty well to your carry gun.

[hkguy]

It wouldn't bother me however to see a sliding scale for power FLOOOOOR tho, so that folks who choose to shoot their compact guns from time to time wouldn't have to load hotter and be at even more of a disadvantage. OTOH, it's still probably a lot softer than SD ammo.

my IDPA 9mm reloaded ammo is still "softer" to me than factory ball from wally world in terms of recoil across the board (kahr P9, HK USPc, P30L, and Spartan 9mm) for ssp/esp. i would have to check, but i think my current loads out of my P9 would be right around 125 pf from a 3.6 in barrel and i am getting 128pf out of a 3.85 in barrel. so i might have to bump up my charge to 3.9grs from 3.8grs to make PF, which is really not that big of a difference.

i dont see the need for a sliding power factor scale for ssp/esp/cdp as factory ammo easily makes min PF. now in esr some tweaking may be needed for "compact" revos like a moon-clipped SP101 shooting 9mm, as 165 pf is not really feasible nor safe. my 130pf SSR loads are very stout in a j-frame but nice and soft in my GP100 but nearly 30oz difference will do that

Edited April 5, 2012 by hkguy

[Seeker]

From Page 28 of the rule book.

Chronograph three (3) rounds at a distance of ten (10) feet using a

gun of MAXIMUM barrel length for the DIVISION of the same

gun type. If two (2) of the three (3) rounds exceed the power floor,

the competitor is in compliance. Prior to each shot, the muzzle of

the gun should be elevated to move the powder charge to the rear

of the case, thus giving the competitor every chance to achieve

maximum velocity.

So it would depend on the MAXIMUM barrel length for the DIVISION of the same gun type.

For conversational purposes, if the Maximum barrel length is 4" for a compact division, than it may be quite possible that current factory or reload will still meet or exceed the power floor requirement regardless if the competitor wishes to compete with a 2" or 3" barrel. Unless of course they are currently sitting at 125 out of a 5" barrel.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Yes, Bob Vogel with a pocket pistol could outperform almost anyone with a race gun. That does not mean that a pocket pistol is better than -- or just as good as -- a race gun. There isn't one thing that makes the difference; there are multiple things -- namely skill and equipment.

Many people carry a compact pistol but also buy a full-size pistol for competition. It seems reasonable to offer a division for true carry guns -- and the difference between a compact gun and a full-size gun is greater than the difference between, say, an XD (ESP) and a Glock (SSP).

define "true" carry guns.

Since I said, "Many people carry a compact pistol but also buy a full-size pistol for competition," that's what I meant by "true carry guns" -- the guns people (who compete with a full-size gun) truly carry.

so this compact division is created, every one that shoots it will be making the same mods to their "little/compact" race gun that they made on their "big" race guns. so now you have a G34 and G19 that are identical internally.

People currently buy one full-size gun for competition and another compact (or subcompact) gun for everyday carry. The idea is to make that smaller gun competitive, so they'll only need one gun: an everyday-carry gun that's still competitive. That was the original idea behind IDPA, wasn't it?

[jmbaccolyte]

Have major and minor scoring in ESP. I have to load my .40 S&W down to 695 fps to hit the power floor of 125,000 with a 180 grain bullet, but the top load on Hodgdon's website with this bullet is 1,159 fps, which is 208,000. If we assume that "The goal is to compete with “service type” ammunition, not light target ammunition." Like the rule book says, then shouldn't the power floor be based on something closer to say 180,000, which would be a 180 grain bullet at 1,000 fps?

That said, I wouldn't have a problem going to a power floor based on energy instead of momentum, which wouldn't disadvantage the 9mm as much. I still think though that there should be major and minor scoring in ESP.

Edited April 27, 2012 by jmbaccolyte

[tackdr1ver]

I think they should allow bull barrels too.

[RePete]

I think they should allow bull barrels too.

Why? Because that's what you have?

Actually they do. The barrel length must be 4.2" or less.

Edited April 27, 2012 by RePete

[deerassassin22]

^^^^ I agree we should allow Bull Barells more and more top end guns are coming with Bulls. If I choose to spend the extra money on quality and accuracy why be punished? Oh becuase IDPA is not a game I forgot we only carry no bull barell guns.

Edited April 27, 2012 by deerassassin22

[tackdr1ver]

I think they should allow bull barrels too.

Why? Because that's what you have?

Actually they do. The barrel length must be 4.2" or less.

Yes, that's exactly why. I want to be able to shoot my 5'' bull barrel 2011 with a full length dust cover. Why discriminate?

[deerassassin22]

Many view it as a match gun or competition gun would be unfair

but equipment is only part of the battle

[tackdr1ver]

Many view it as a match gun or competition gun would be unfair

but equipment is only part of the battle

Ya, I know that good equipment can only take you so far. 99% of it is the ability of the guy shooting the gun.

But the thing that gets me is most of the guys shooting ESP are not shooting a gun they carry(or suitable for carry). The gun is built to race within the restrictions of ESP. My feeling is: open up ESP to encourage a broader range of shooters and equipment. For me, IDPA is something I "sometimes" do. If it were easier to crossover and use some of the equipment I use for USPSA I would shoot IDPA more often.

In my opinion IDPA needs to get away from the whole "simulating real world practical shooting scenarios" type of mentality. It is a game, and will always be a game. And leave it up to the shooter: if a shooter wants to run a bone stock gun, fine. If a shooter wants to run a super slick blaster, fine. Surely there is a division for everyone (or could be).

[deerassassin22]

I agree IDPA don't want to be considred a game even though we are timed and keep score. I think if they want to be Defensive you should not walk through stages I have been overseas plenty of times as an 11Bravo and never walked through a gun fight and "Gamed" a stage or fight before.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

I agree IDPA don't want to be considred a game even though we are timed and keep score. I think if they want to be Defensive you should not walk through stages. I have been overseas plenty of times as an 11Bravo and never walked through a gun fight and "Gamed" a stage or fight before.

There's no denying that IDPA is game. The question is, how do we design a good game that is also a good training tool. The game won't ever be just like a real-life violent encounter, but some games are better at instilling the skills and habits we want to instill.

I like the idea of "blind" stages, too, but they have their problems. So far, I've liked stages where, say, you turn over cards, and then shoot only those targets with the right suit -- or avoid shooting those targets.