Wish list of Rule changes

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

There is a belief that IDPA through the development process should become USPSA Jr.

What does that mean, and who exactly is asking for USPSA Jr.?

Is it wrong to borrow any good ideas from the other sport?

[motosapiens]

In reference to the "obsolete" comment. I'd like a show of hands for those that compete and win using a 9mm 1911 in ESP.

Of course obsolete equipment can compete just fine if you make rules that eliminate the advantages of modern equipment, like restricting mag capacity and rewarding underpowered creampuff non-defense loads.

Note that I'm just poking the 1911 guys with a stick for fun, not because I care. Since alot of people actually do still carry a 1911 type gun, I think it's reasonable to have a division where they are not at a competitive disadvantage.

My personal suggestion would be to tweak the rules ever so slightly so 40 and 45 1911's could use 10 round mags and let cdp be a 40 and up major category with 10-round capacity, and guys with glock or xd or cz 40's (and 45's) wouldn't have any more restriction than they already do in backwards states like cali and hawaii.

But whatever, I just like to shoot, and I'm perfectly happy shooting in whatever division my gun will fit.

Edited May 7, 2012 by motosapiens

[Brewski]

Change "Range Commands" to "Range Requests" - it would make the SOs seem more friendly and less intimidating for new shooters.

[Chills1994]

DWFAN wrote:

My CZ75 Shadow is exactly how I picked it up from the FFL, and the exact way it was presented to IDPA for ssp approval. Does that count?

You didn't add any skateboard tape to it?

If so, WOW! cool, I'm impressed.

freeidaho wrote:

So, are you saying...

--Stock Auto 125K

--Stock Auto 165K

--Enhanced Auto 125K

--Enhanced Auto 165K

--Enhanced 1911 165K

--Stock Revolver 125K not moon clipped

--Enhanced Revolver 165K moon clipped

I guess that was directed at me, Ken?

No, that's not what I am saying at all. Sorry, if it came out that way.

You shoot some semi-auto pistol.... Glock 17, a Beretta 92D (a double action only model in 9mm) , some flavor of a 1911 in .45 ACP, and let's say a Beretta 96D (again a double action only model but in .40 Smith and Wesson this time).

Okay...you bring the Beretta 96D with you on match day. You buy just factory ammo for it which has been chrono'ed before. It makes major power factor...

So you get grouped in the MAJOR Semi-Auto Pistol Division (MAJSAP) and load up with you just 8 plus 1 in the gun (to level the playing field with or to the 1911's in .45 that will hold just 8+1)

The next match you show up, but this time you have reloads for your double action only Beretta 96D, and your reloads PF out at 132. So you load up 10+1 in the gun. You get grouped in the MINOR Semi-Auto Pistol Division (MINSAP).

You have a Smith and Wesson 686 six shot revolver in .357Mag/.38 Special. You load it up with .357 Magnum and shoot MAJOR Revolver (MAJREV).

Next month you come out with some bunny fart .38 Special loads and shoot MINREV.

Reload that wheelgun however you want. Cut the cylinder for moonclips..use Safariland Comp III's...shuck 'em by hand one at a time...whatever.

So basically, there will be four "divisions" total.

And just a slight thread drift...sorry, I am kinda anti-division, and anti-classification. I lean more towards the "run whatchya brung, shoot head's up" end of the spectrum. I don't really believe in "handicapping" shooters or somehow insulating shooters's scores from each other.

[Chills1994]

I'm just regurgitating that ^^^^^ since this thread was started back in November 2011.

4 divisions, that's it:

MAJSAP

MINSAP

MAJREV

MINREV

On a different note....no more cutting out the down zero of close in targets, especially at a major match. Don't be cheap bastards... Just replace those targets more often.

[waktasz]

That wouldn't be so bad actually, although I guess the speedloader revo guys would be mad.

Edited May 8, 2012 by waktasz

[Chills1994]

Not any madder than 7 years ago when their 5 inch barreled wheel guns were outlawed.

[Joe4d]

I clearly said 1911 45, needs a protected division and has one in most shooting sports. NOT 9mm's, not wide body's.

45 1911's are only competitive in divisions with rules that handicap better more modern designs. Sorry but thats life. I like my 58 remington, but I'm not gonna delude myself into thinking I can keep up with a 645.

[Chuck D]

There is a belief that IDPA through the development process should become USPSA Jr.

What does that mean, and who exactly is asking for USPSA Jr.?

Is it wrong to borrow any good ideas from the other sport?

It isn't difficult at all to determine what I mean by turning IDPA into another version of USPSA sans the USPSA Jr. comment.

No it isn't bad to borrow ideals from other shoting sports IF they honor the basic principles and core beliefs. Some of the suggestions brought forth with all due respect do not honor or complement the basic principles of IDPA.

I shoot IDPA because it isn't USPSA. The vast majority of competitors I encounter do so for the very same reason.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Chuck D

[Chills1994]

There is a belief that IDPA through the development process should become USPSA Jr.

What does that mean, and who exactly is asking for USPSA Jr.?

Is it wrong to borrow any good ideas from the other sport?

It isn't difficult at all to determine what I mean by turning IDPA into another version of USPSA sans the USPSA Jr. comment.

No it isn't bad to borrow ideals from other shoting sports IF they honor the basic principles and core beliefs. Some of the suggestions brought forth with all due respect do not honor or complement the basic principles of IDPA.

I shoot IDPA because it isn't USPSA. The vast majority of competitors I encounter do so for the very same reason.

let's not spiral this into a USPSA vs. IDPA thread, okay?

[ima45dv8]

let's not spiral this into a USPSA vs. IDPA thread, okay?

Right. Let's not.

[Chuck D]

I'm not. I was asked a question and I answered it.

[BikeNGun]

Change "Range Commands" to "Range Requests" - it would make the SOs seem more friendly and less intimidating for new shooters.

If you can penalized for not complying, it's not a request.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

I was asked a question and I answered it.

If you're asked, "What does that mean?" and you answer, "It isn't difficult at all to determine what I mean," you haven't answered the question.

And calling other people's suggestions "USPSA Jr." clearly isn't meant as a compliment.

Some elements of USPSA certainly would contradict the basic principles and core beliefs of IDPA, and some certainly would not. I don't think anyone is asking to introduce impractical equipment into IDPA, and I don't think anyone's even asking to get rid of shooting from cover or wearing a concealment garment. So, what suggestions would contradict the basic principles and core beliefs of IDPA?

[shooting for M]

Make the rules clearly defined, I like the use of a fault line instead of the ROs eyeball for proper use of cover. Retaining an empty mag or any mag drives me crazy. Gunfight happens I will most likely be shooting to slidelock. Retaining a magazine is "for a lull in the action", if I am on the clock, there better not be any "lull" .

Division rules always stink USPSA or IDPA, the no XD in SSP is pretty stinkin silly though. Say I carry a .40, I am being penalized for using my duty carry ammo, so I either need to buy a 9mm and buy factory or reload cream puff .40. For some LE, they may get some practice ammo, and now their ammo price just went way up because they aren't competitive with the ammo they are given to practice with. Same in USPSA production, but there are other divisions that give me a reward for shooting more duty carry type ammo. The only division in the entire sport that goes over 125k is cdp, I guess unless you carry a SS .45 you just shoot minor, I don't know the .40 duty ammo we used to use was over 190PF . I don't know how to do it, but there should be some disparity in major/minor scoring, maybe double the time for points down in minor or just keep them completely seperate.

Not turning IDPA into USPSA jr. will rely more on your match directors than your rules. I can set up some stages within IDPA rules and make it pretty USPSA like, and vice versa.

Not a rule change but, stop with the "IDPA is more tactical" attitude (and USPSA guys, stop busting on IDPA). It may be more practical due to some equipment regulations, however once you take score and declare a winner, it's a game, no way around it. Want to be more tactical, set up drills and walk throughs with par times only, you win or you lose each scenario independently. There are no tactics in either sport, only gunhandling skills and solving the problem as fast as you can within the rules. In tactics you compete against the scenario or adversary, in games you compete against friends (maybe a rival here or there ). Want to test tactics, play airsoft force on force, that will really teach you tactics, there are no rules in tactics except one, WIN!

I don't want to come across as busting on IDPA, if there was a local IDPA match, I would shoot it. I think it's great that there are two sports to choose from, it helps keep things interesting. I wish there were more crossover shooters, but competitive equipment for two sports can get expensive. I do enjoy USPSA more, but not much (and my sti would get awfully lonely if there was only an IDPA club here). I understand that I am improving my gun handling skills competing in or practicing for either sport. I have to learn my tactics elsewhere. I will say though that being good at gunhandling skills has helped me in tactics training.

Just my $.02.

[Chuck D]

I was asked a question and I answered it.

If you're asked, "What does that mean?" and you answer, "It isn't difficult at all to determine what I mean," you haven't answered the question.

And calling other people's suggestions "USPSA Jr." clearly isn't meant as a compliment.

Some elements of USPSA certainly would contradict the basic principles and core beliefs of IDPA, and some certainly would not. I don't think anyone is asking to introduce impractical equipment into IDPA, and I don't think anyone's even asking to get rid of shooting from cover or wearing a concealment garment. So, what suggestions would contradict the basic principles and core beliefs of IDPA?

Your not asking a question, you are picking a fight. Not interested.

My USPSA # is A6676. I've been a member a long time. I have nothing against USPSA.

My suggestion is to read this entire thread, then read the IDPA forum for proposed rule changes and formulate your own opinion.

[Chuck D]

Make the rules clearly defined, I like the use of a fault line instead of the ROs eyeball for proper use of cover. Retaining an empty mag or any mag drives me crazy. Gunfight happens I will most likely be shooting to slidelock. Retaining a magazine is "for a lull in the action", if I am on the clock, there better not be any "lull" .

Division rules always stink USPSA or IDPA, the no XD in SSP is pretty stinkin silly though. Say I carry a .40, I am being penalized for using my duty carry ammo, so I either need to buy a 9mm and buy factory or reload cream puff .40. For some LE, they may get some practice ammo, and now their ammo price just went way up because they aren't competitive with the ammo they are given to practice with. Same in USPSA production, but there are other divisions that give me a reward for shooting more duty carry type ammo. The only division in the entire sport that goes over 125k is cdp, I guess unless you carry a SS .45 you just shoot minor, I don't know the .40 duty ammo we used to use was over 190PF . I don't know how to do it, but there should be some disparity in major/minor scoring, maybe double the time for points down in minor or just keep them completely seperate.

Not turning IDPA into USPSA jr. will rely more on your match directors than your rules. I can set up some stages within IDPA rules and make it pretty USPSA like, and vice versa.

Not a rule change but, stop with the "IDPA is more tactical" attitude (and USPSA guys, stop busting on IDPA). It may be more practical due to some equipment regulations, however once you take score and declare a winner, it's a game, no way around it. Want to be more tactical, set up drills and walk throughs with par times only, you win or you lose each scenario independently. There are no tactics in either sport, only gunhandling skills and solving the problem as fast as you can within the rules. In tactics you compete against the scenario or adversary, in games you compete against friends (maybe a rival here or there ). Want to test tactics, play airsoft force on force, that will really teach you tactics, there are no rules in tactics except one, WIN!

I don't want to come across as busting on IDPA, if there was a local IDPA match, I would shoot it. I think it's great that there are two sports to choose from, it helps keep things interesting. I wish there were more crossover shooters, but competitive equipment for two sports can get expensive. I do enjoy USPSA more, but not much (and my sti would get awfully lonely if there was only an IDPA club here). I understand that I am improving my gun handling skills competing in or practicing for either sport. I have to learn my tactics elsewhere. I will say though that being good at gunhandling skills has helped me in tactics training.

Just my $.02.

Retaining an empty magazine serves no purpose. Retaining a magazine with rounds or even a single round is a wise practice. Anyone who has undergone any law enforcement or armed security training and/or licensing courses are taught this practice...for good reason. Having partaken in both, that mag you've retained with a single round in it just may save your life.

IDPA is a "tactical" sport. Carry guns, from carry holsters, shooting from cover, wearing cover garments. Yes, there is a way to "game" IDPA by using light loads and performing "match only" modifications to pistols but the level of "gaming" is significantly less than other shooting sports due to what I believe to be the founding principles of the sport. Anyone who was around at the gestation stage of IPSC would remember the pre-compensator, pre optics days of IPSC and the development of IPSC shooting to where any form of "practical" in "practical shooting" has been removed from the sport. This is not where I'd like IDPA develop to.

I agree fully that "tactics" are not learned at the weekend match. I believe that once you've been taught "tactics" the best place to practice them is IDPA matches.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Retaining an empty magazine serves no purpose. Retaining a magazine with rounds or even a single round is a wise practice.

I completely agree -- in fact, I think almost everyone agrees -- with one caveat: in a shooting game, like IDPA or USPSA, where you know ahead of time where the targets are going to be and how many rounds you're going to need, you won't ever need to reload from slide-lock, unless the game requires it. Sometimes an "unrealistic" rule forces competitors to build better skills and habits for outside the game than a more "realistic" rule would.

Anyone who was around at the gestation stage of IPSC would remember the pre-compensator, pre optics days of IPSC and the development of IPSC shooting to where any form of "practical" in "practical shooting" has been removed from the sport.

Do you feel that USPSA's Production division uses impractical equipment?

[Chuck D]

Retaining an empty magazine serves no purpose. Retaining a magazine with rounds or even a single round is a wise practice.

I completely agree -- in fact, I think almost everyone agrees -- with one caveat: in a shooting game, like IDPA or USPSA, where you know ahead of time where the targets are going to be and how many rounds you're going to need, you won't ever need to reload from slide-lock, unless the game requires it. Sometimes an "unrealistic" rule forces competitors to build better skills and habits for outside the game than a more "realistic" rule would.

Anyone who was around at the gestation stage of IPSC would remember the pre-compensator, pre optics days of IPSC and the development of IPSC shooting to where any form of "practical" in "practical shooting" has been removed from the sport.

Do you feel that USPSA's Production division uses impractical equipment?

Yes. Not so much firearms wise but DOH holsters, race gun mag pouches and belt not having to run through the loops would fit my category of not "practical" but again it's just my opinion here.

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

I like the use of a fault line instead of the ROs eyeball for proper use of cover.

This suggestion, to use fault lines, keeps coming up, so I think it deserves more discussion.

Even without changing the rules, a match director could put fault lines down -- or markers of some other kind -- and I don't think it would be problematic. It's just that an IDPA course of fire would require multiple fault lines per piece of cover -- one per target -- and that could get cumbersome. Also, one of the skills we're trying to build is an eye for cover, not just the habit of slicing the pie.

Another approach would be to reduce the penalty for mild cover infractions, so that SOs wouldn't be afraid to call cover more often. A three-second procedural can destroy a shooter's score, so different SOs' judgment calls can make a huge difference in outcome. If putting your toes over the line amounted to a "down one," SOs could call it regularly.

Say I carry a .40, I am being penalized for using my duty carry ammo, so I either need to buy a 9mm and buy factory or reload cream puff .40.

For a sport devoted to "practical" guns, IDPA sure doesn't show the .40 much love. In this day and age, where everything's scored by computer, we could plug everyone's power factor (or caliber, or kinetic energy, or whatever) into a formula and adjust scores however we like. Right now, downs are always a half-second. We could combine divisions and let 9mm, .40, and .45 all compete, but with different down factors: 0.50 for 9mm, 0.40 for .40, 0.30 for .45, or whatever.

[motosapiens]

IDPA is a "tactical" sport. Carry guns, from carry holsters, shooting from cover, wearing cover garments. Yes, there is a way to "game" IDPA by using light loads and performing "match only" modifications to pistols but the level of "gaming" is significantly less than other shooting sports due to what I believe to be the founding principles of the sport.

I really enjoy IDPA, partly because of the greater focus on real world carryable equipment, but I still lol'd a little at this.

Those of us with grown up guns ( ) are pretty much *required* to use gamer light loads because there is absolutely no incentive to shoot full power 40 loads.

Of course 40's have the same problem in uspsa production. Yeah, I can shoot limited, but I really am not interested in shooting a race-only gun with monster magazines, so I load 40 minor there now too, and I enjoy it.

Anyway, I think my only minor gripe with IDPA is that some of the rules are real judgement calls that different SO's could call 2 different ways. Things like round dumping, cover, and so forth. Things like retaining non-empty magazines, or the equipment and concealment rules are a total non-issue for me, because they are pretty much black and white.

Sounds to me like IDPA is headed in the right direction with the tiger teams tho, and they are all much more experienced than I, so I'm going to keep shooting and let them do their job and just play by whatever rules they come up with, even if they're not tailored specifically for my exact desires.

[Chuck D]

IDPA is a "tactical" sport. Carry guns, from carry holsters, shooting from cover, wearing cover garments. Yes, there is a way to "game" IDPA by using light loads and performing "match only" modifications to pistols but the level of "gaming" is significantly less than other shooting sports due to what I believe to be the founding principles of the sport.

I really enjoy IDPA, partly because of the greater focus on real world carryable equipment, but I still lol'd a little at this.

Those of us with grown up guns ( ) are pretty much *required* to use gamer light loads because there is absolutely no incentive to shoot full power 40 loads.

Of course 40's have the same problem in uspsa production. Yeah, I can shoot limited, but I really am not interested in shooting a race-only gun with monster magazines, so I load 40 minor there now too, and I enjoy it.

Anyway, I think my only minor gripe with IDPA is that some of the rules are real judgement calls that different SO's could call 2 different ways. Things like round dumping, cover, and so forth. Things like retaining non-empty magazines, or the equipment and concealment rules are a total non-issue for me, because they are pretty much black and white.

Sounds to me like IDPA is headed in the right direction with the tiger teams tho, and they are all much more experienced than I, so I'm going to keep shooting and let them do their job and just play by whatever rules they come up with, even if they're not tailored specifically for my exact desires.

Grown up guns....perfect !

I never quite understood why 40cal/10mm was excluded from CDP either. I have an opinion but that wouldn't be a wise thing to state it here.

Then again...I hate 40's so...(only kidding).

Edited May 12, 2012 by Chuck D

[motosapiens]

I never quite understood why 40cal/10mm was excluded from CDP either. I have an opinion but that wouldn't be a wise thing to state it here.

Then again...I'm scared and intimidated by the mighty mighty .40, so...(only kidding).

Fixed, at no charge.

Edited May 13, 2012 by motosapiens

[Chuck D]

I never quite understood why 40cal/10mm was excluded from CDP either. I have an opinion but that wouldn't be a wise thing to state it here.

Then again...I'm scared and intimidated by the mighty mighty .40, so...(only kidding).

Fixed, at no charge.

I'm scared and intimidated by LOTS of things...

I still hate 40 S&W. I do have a certain fondness for the 10mm though.

Thanks for your efforts...

[Not-So-Mad Matt]

Those of us with grown up guns ( ) are pretty much *required* to use gamer light loads because there is absolutely no incentive to shoot full power 40 loads.

In fact, I know some shooters who have chosen to shoot .40, downloaded to the 9mm power floor, because it delivers slightly less felt recoil while making a bigger hole.