Best course of action when encountering illegal stage?

[CHA-LEE]

One of our local clubs relies upon the Level 1 exemption for everything. Nobody makes a big stink about it unless the stage is unsafe -- the "big solution" is often for the first squad on the stage to fix the problem themselves.

I personally don't get worked up about it and don't mind shooting an illegal stage if it's both safe and fun. I draw the line when someone advocates stretching the rules in one direction to penalize competitors while stretching them in the other to overlook bad stages.

Please show me where in the rule book it makes it possible to get away with a "Level 1 Exemption for everything". I will save you the time as it does not exist. There are only a few level 1 "exemptions" allowed and they are explicitly defined. Anything beyond that is simply breaking the rules. Setting up legal stages is a requirement of hosting USPSA Sanctioned matches. If clubs can't adhere to the USPSA rules then they shouldn't be hosting USPSA matches.

It is not hard to create fun, and challenging legal stages without the need of a bunch of equipment or props. What is needed is forethought of what the stage is and how it is setup to make sure you are not creating an illegal stage to start off with.

When I run into an illegal stage at a club match I point it out to the Match Director BEFORE the match starts and also offer a solution. Doing this allows them to fix the stage before the match starts quickly. Problem Solved.

[MarkCO]

The other is clubs that consistently put up illegal stages and seem to not care. There one can only vote with one's feet.

That and a couple well placed emails to Sedro and Co...

Like I said, you don't want to play by our rules, take the sign down.

JT

Well, that is easier said than done. I am pretty sure I know of whom SA Friday is speaking, and I did contact the club president, the section co-ordinator, the Area director and Sedro...and nothing was done. Even when a classifier was set up wrong (because they had to make it fit the berm) the scores stood and were entered. Was pretty much told "just don't shoot those matches" even by HQ. Granted, some things have changed for the better since then.

I have had a few stages challenged as being rules compliant, from L1 to L3. In most cases, it was a slight move or change of a target position, or adding a port or fault line. I do also believe that if you don't want to run USPSA rules compliant stages, then don't run USPSA matches. You diminish the sport, the brand and do a dis-service to your competitors, especially when they go to a larger match.

[MarkCO]

When I run into an illegal stage at a club match I point it out to the Match Director BEFORE the match starts and also offer a solution. Doing this allows them to fix the stage before the match starts quickly. Problem Solved.

Yep, and he has done it to me. Thing is, he really wants the stage to be legit so the new to C class shooter does not get hosed. It would not matter what illegal stage I set up, Charlie would still be in the top 5, and more often 1st or 2nd on the stage in the overalls. He is not trying to game up his score or dumb down the stages, just make them legit.

[HeinrichDerLowe]

Please show me where in the rule book it makes it possible to get away with a "Level 1 Exemption for everything". I will save you the time as it does not exist. There are only a few level 1 "exemptions" allowed and they are explicitly defined. Anything beyond that is simply breaking the rules. Setting up legal stages is a requirement of hosting USPSA Sanctioned matches. If clubs can't adhere to the USPSA rules then they shouldn't be hosting USPSA matches.

That's exactly my point. Some match directors use the level 1 exemption as an excuse for an illegal stage, even though it often does not apply. That said, I enjoy the social aspects of the game as much as any other, and frankly don't mind shooting a club match stage that bends the rules (within reason). For those of us that don't have several matches to choose from on any given weekend, shooting a fun and safe stage that falls outside of USPSA rules beats not shooting at all.

[Steve RA]

If it appears to be safe, just shoot it and enjoy.

[CHA-LEE]

I fully disagree. We have rules that define the requirements of stages in order to make them legal. If a club is willingly choosing to ignore the rules by setting up illegal stages and not even attempting to fix it then they shouldn't be hosting USPSA sanctioned matches. Matches that adhere to the USPSA rules are a benefit to everyone. I honestly can't think of any valid "Excuse" to not follow the rules. Being lazy is not an excuse either.

Edited June 12, 2013 by CHA-LEE

[clintv]

I agree with most of the comments above. Also get there early and help set-up. Often the MD may not know it is an illegal stage. Pointing that out at set-up may help the match go better for everybody.

[sigboy40]

Well, I will say this to kinda throw a wrench into some of the suggestions. I know of an MD who ran (and pretty sure is still running matches) at least one illegal stage and usually more at every one of his USPSA matches, did it knowingly and didn't care, refused to listen to anyone about it, didn't allow anyone to do stages or change the illegal stages to help out. If you pissed him off bad enough, he would tell you not to come back. So, your options are real easy in this situation, shut up and shoot or don't go out in the first place. I will give him one thing. He was consistant in his ways. You knew what to expect. Worst case scenario for this question does exist. And the only thing to do then is accept it as it is and shoot or not go out in the first place.

Speaking as an MD, I prefer to be told about issues. I also like to received stage designs once and a while too. Why is it so many don't design stages at all?

I know of one of those too!

I've recently had the same problem, an affiliated club with an MD that only sets up basic stages, and will change a stage halfway thru a match. Like was mentioned earlier, bringing up the issues only gets you ran out. At least everybody knows what to expect.

I even tried the show up early and set up a stage, only too have it dumbed down, because it was 'too complicated'. I guess disappearing ports that made you think and move where too much

[HeinrichDerLowe]

I'm not convinced that we need to start running match directors, stage designers, volunteers, and even entire clubs out of our sport because they set up challenging, enjoyable, and safe stages that sometimes bend the more technical USPSA rules. That notion seems particularly dubious when USPSA hasn't yet incorporated other rule changes into the rulebook.

Getting back to addressing illegal stages: in most circumstances, the best opportunity to correct them is when you're there early to help build the stages.

[ericjhuber]

Excellent advice all! Speak softly and carry a big solution. Please don't discourage stage designers.

...and thank your stage designers when you think about it. I don't do stage design because I'm too new and ignorant, but I do try to show up early to matches to do the grunt work (I might not be smart, but I can lift heavy things and drive stakes in the ground) and I can see how much effort they put in to trying to make neat stages to shoot.

[lenf]

To all of you "we just shoot for fun guys" take a look at the latest

Front Sight magazine, July/August 2013.

Club Connections - Ignorance or Apathy - Troy McManus - page 18

Level 1 Exemptions - Art Brown - page 25

USPSA is working hard to build a sport....I think they have just spoken...Len

[clintv]

To all of you "we just shoot for fun guys" take a look at the latest

Front Sight magazine, July/August 2013.

Club Connections - Ignorance or Apathy - Troy McManus - page 18

Level 1 Exemptions - Art Brown - page 25

USPSA is working hard to build a sport....I think they have just spoken...Len

Agree. BTW I really like the new Front Site magazine format.

[perrysho]

Hillbilly OPINION !!

If you didn't have your shinney butt there to help set-up for local then don't say a word, shot and go on your merry way.

A lot of folks our area don't shoot one of the gun sports now, rules lawyers sitting around like vultures wanting to shap a PE on someone or PO them.

Most of the time probally better to shot , zip the lip, help tear down, go home.

JMO

Perry

[sperman]

I think that is a BS answer. I've set up stages and it isn't any harder to setup a legal stage than an illegal one. It does require the stage designer, RM or MD to know the appropriate rulebook (preferably all 3), and do their best to ensure the match is run per the rules.

[Nimitz]

And just because you didn't help setup doesn't mean that you have any less right to a legal stage to shoot if it is being advertised as a sanctioned USPSA match ... Either follow the rules or take the USPSA sign down ....

[ChuckS]

And just because you didn't help setup doesn't mean that you have any less right to a legal stage to shoot if it is being advertised as a sanctioned USPSA match ... Either follow the rules or take the USPSA sign down ....

[motosapiens]

When it comes to the occasional stage that has more than 8 shots from a particular view..... why does anyone care that much? Is it just an 'ordnung muss sein' thing? I figure if I have to do a standing reload, so does everyone else in l10, production or singlestack, so we're all even.

Sure, it would be better if everything were perfect, but I have better things to freak out about at a local match, especially if the MD and stage designers are making an honest effort to provide diverse and challenging stages.

[frag316]

When it comes to the occasional stage that has more than 8 shots from a particular view..... why does anyone care that much? Is it just an 'ordnung muss sein' thing? I figure if I have to do a standing reload, so does everyone else in l10, production or singlestack, so we're all even.

Sure, it would be better if everything were perfect, but I have better things to freak out about at a local match, especially if the MD and stage designers are making an honest effort to provide diverse and challenging stages.

I think that's one of the most misunderstood rules (I had a problem with understanding it, too). You can't REQUIRE someone to take more than 8 shots from one position. That's different from making more than 8 shots AVAILABLE from one position. If you can see the extra shots/targets from another position, you're not breaking the rule.

[HeinrichDerLowe]

Every time I check up on this thread, I gain a greater understanding of why some people take up our sport but eventually decide not to come back.

Boo.

[lawboy]

And just because you didn't help setup doesn't mean that you have any less right to a legal stage to shoot if it is being advertised as a sanctioned USPSA match ... Either follow the rules or take the USPSA sign down ....

[lawboy]

I am all about growing the sport. But I have no interest in shooting with people who do not want to play by the rules. People who leave because others are serious about the game and the rules cannot get off the range fast enough for me. GO! This sport is not for you. This is USPSA. We have rules. It is FREESTYLE not FREE FOR ALL.

To be honest, I see some new people at matches who in my opinion are not ready for this game. They don't have the understanding of their gun and how to manipulate it to be safe. They are not leaving due to course design rule that they have no clue about. They are leaving b/c they are in over their heads.

[BEC]

I think stages should be legal, regardless of what level.

[Hello]

I care less about a stage that is illegal and more that everyone, on every squad, gets the same fair chance at it.

[JAFO]

We try very hard to put on every match with L2-legal stages (which it appears will be to our benefit once the L1 exemptions are removed). It might take a little more time to review the stages on paper and walk them as or after they are set up, but it can be done. Most of the illegal stages I have seen at locals were setup the morning of the match with stage descriptions hastily drawn out that morning. We have the benefit of being able to setup the night before, which is nice, but a little more preparation on paper goes a long way. We post a lot of our stages on a club forum for member review with open discussion to encourage learning stage design. It helps find the holes, the problems, and ways to make the stage better (more choices, better flow, etc). Encouraging more members to help with designing also can take some of the pressure off the MD (especially if it's always the same person).

Another thing to consider with regard to legal stages and abiding by the rules is that matches not run per the rules will instill bad habits in newer shooters and possibly get them in trouble if they go to a L2 or L3 match not knowing what they are doing wrong. Case in point, at our last match, I was RO'ing a squad with a lady shooter who had been shooting in Production at a few USPSA matches, yet no one bothered to tell her that her SAO CZ she had been shooting was illegal for the Division and that her mags had to be loaded to 10 rounds. I don't know how the other matches missed/overlooked those things, but it would have meant a trip to Open if she went to an area match. We took the time to explain her options if she wanted to stick with that gun, and encouraged her to read through the rulebook.

[Atlgentlegiant]

I want to put a bit of a different spin on this. I run a local club that shoots indoors weekly. We have limited space in the single bay at the range. I am also trying to leverage a few other guys to help with stage design to try to get them up to speed to eventually take over the club in another year or two. We try our best to create legal stages and to use the L1 exemptions sparingly. That said after we shoot the first stage we often have to do a quick reset to get in another couple of stages during our allotted time at the range. Sometimes those stages will be more than 8 shots from a single shooting area but that is as far as I will go with it unless we make it clear that we are doing an outlaw shoot that night (we occasionally do carry gun nights). If you have range limitations sometimes you do have to get creative to make things work.