Flipping between optic and non-optic divisions

[matteekay]

Just curious - does anyone here switch between optic and irons divisions? Do you think it helps your shooting? Or hurt it?

 

I have a setup on my revolver that lets me do both (going to use the dot in ICORE and the irons in USPSA) so I'll be able to see on that front, but I wonder about trying to go from USPSA Open/CO to Limited/SS/Production where the guns are similar in shape but very different in behavior.

 

I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on the matter.

[StuckinMS]

I have not done it personally, but an A class shooter that I shoot with 3 times a month has a terrible time going from open to limited.  It is not as bad a transition from limited to open.  Basically because of the muzzle flip .  He says it is way too easy to get used to the splits that the comps let you shoot at and trying to slow those down for the limited gun takes s lot of discipline. 

[HCH]

I have two top ends for my 16-40. One limited, and the other open. I don't have much trouble at all switching between the two, although I have a slide-mounted Doctor sight on the open slide. 

[OPENB]

I made A in Limited 15 years ago, then bought my first open gun. Been shooting dots ever since, not counting some dabbling in SS and Prod. for Battle in the Bluegrass. I recently bought another Ltd. gun, and shot one match. Sucked badly. My eyes have aged, so seeing the front sight is a struggle. And I can't shoot splits with the 40 like I can with the dot guns. I noticed the focus is entirely different with iron sights. With my open guns, I'm concentrating on the target, the dot just goes there. Can't shoot irons that way. I even thought about selling all my iron sight guns.

For me, switching sight styles is a commitment.

[zzt]

The biggest problem I have switching guns is finding the sights.  Your muscle memory gets in the way.  For example, one of my Open guns wears a frame mounted Slideride.  It is my primary Open Major gun.  I shoot it fine.  When I switch to my Steel Challenge gun with a slide mounted reflex sight, I have problems finding the dot.It takes a couple of days of dry fire practice to get used to the new setup.  Then when I switch back, it takes another couple of days.  The problem is even worse when I switch to a 1911 with a deep rear scalloped slide with the dot mounted directly to the slide.  The dot is just above where the iron sights would be.  I've taken to using that gun only for pins and such where the start position is low ready.

 

I had a huge problem switching from Limited to Open, just because of the find the dot problem.  It really took a couple of months to get thoroughly used to it.  All my guns now wear red dots, because my 70 year old eyes demand them.  I'm now building a couple of pistols that will have the dots mounted at the same height above the bore, just to eliminate the find the dot problem.

Edited August 30, 2017 by zzt

[JGus]

In my experience going back and forth between CO and PRD did not work well. I tried shooting both CO and PRD in the same year with mixed results. To begin with, it took me awhile to get used to locating the red dot on my CO gun (XDm 5.25 with Springer mount and Burris FF3).  I felt like I was really driving down the muzzle of the gun to find it.  It didn't feel natural like it did with my CZ Accu in PRD.  So just the grip between the two felt very different.

 

But the biggest issue I had was when I would shoot PRD, I had a tendency to look past my front sight and at the target, just as I would as if I was looking for the red dot on the target.  So shooting CO often got me in a bad habit of being target focused and not front sight focused with my iron sights.  And now I'm back to just iron sights. 

[cheby]

Switching to optic sights could be useful for various skills development in my opinion. Things like shot calling for example.  

[matteekay]

That's what I was wondering about, and it definitely sounds like there's two different schools of thought there.

 

Thanks for all the input, everyone! I have been keeping up with the thread; I just didn't have anything to offer, lol.

 

I was curious if most of the trouble going from Open to another division stemmed from the ability to use a comp (and the reduced recoil it affords you), but it sounds like even the sights themselves can be an issue.

[zzt]

matt, it is definitely the sights, and specifically the height above the bore.  Recoil is not a problem.  You don't consciously feel it while shooting.

[zombywoof]

I shoot mostly USPSA with optics. Occasionally there will be IDPA and ICORE matches that I shoot irons.  One focuses on target, one on front sight. With irons I put a piece of tape over my non-shooting eye's lens. Seems to help me focus on the sights.

[Edge40]

I shoot limited normally and thought I would dabble in CO once in a while. It's just way to different for me to go back and forth. Forget about the gun differences, for me it was the holster position and finding the dot. I like the idea of CO and it's fun to shoot but I think I'm going to let it go for now. I just don't think it's worth going back and forth. I really want to be competitive and it just seems like a major hinderance in that regard. Some people don't mind bouncing around. It's just not for me. 

[petrojc]

I have just started playing with carry optics. I just put a dove tail mount on my production gun. The first shot from the draw is my problem. It is soooo slow. Right now I am much faster with my single stack gun, but the CO showed some promise during a steel match last month. When the dot shows up quickly on the draw, it is really fast. I don't have much of an issue between shots, just picking it up on the draw.

[teros135]

Dry fire, dry fire, and more dry fire...

[Beef15]

Just started shooting CO, from PRD. I also shoot a club "defensive pistol" match where I still use my PRD set-up.

 

I use G17s, one milled with a 6 MOA Viper. Going back and forth does not seem difficult, when I had a dovetail mount with an Accelerator it was not anywhere near seamless.

At this point I don't think I have enough time in to really declare any pros/cons, but with the relative ease of switching between the two I don't think it can hurt.

 

[motosapiens]

i don't have much interest in competing in uspsa with a dot, but i have found that using one for steel challenge on my 22 was helping my uspsa shooting with irons, particularly regarding visual awareness of what the sights are doing. So i got a carry optics gun to practice with. I use it for about 1/4 or 1/3 of my dryfire and live-fire training, and just in a few weeks I feel like I'm seeing more and getting much better at shot calling. I don't know if I'll ever shoot it in a match, but purely as a training tool it's helping me improve my discipline on steel, shooting on the move, grip, trigger control, and shot-calling in general.

 

I could see if you were the sort of person that just gets 1 sight picture with an open gun and yanks the trigger twice, it might not be helpful. I think you still probably have to pay attention to both shots for it to be any use.

[JWBaldree]

I moved from production to open this year, and also started 3 gunning again. Short version is that I had to learn the dot while still remembering how to run my Shadow in 3 gun, and my shooting improved overall. Long version is:

 

I have always shot SS or production, made M class in production. I tapered off of shooting to herd my kids all over hell's creation for travel ball, but since they've finished their travel days I decided to start shooting seriously again. Only problem I had was I had a hard time seeing front sights anymore due to crappy eyesight. I figured what the hell, let's go open. As I've been running a CZ Shadow for last six years, I bought a Czechmate. I had a hard time learning to find the dot, as the grip frames are just different enough between the 75 and the TS frames. I got tired of fighting it and modified the Czechmate frame to point and index for me like the Shadow does. I've been shooting the Czechmate all season long, and have won A class at a couple of level 2s. My shooting has a renewed interest and I am learning a bunch from the dot.

 

I also started 3 gunning this year, and decided to stick with my Shadow. Despite having a fuzzy front sight and hardly pulling the gun out except for 3 gun matches, I am shooting the Shadow better than I have in quite awhile. Sure part of this is from putting a lot of rounds through the Czechmate, but my overall speed and accuracy with the Shadow is hugely improved too. Obviously I have zero problems switching back and forth, which I attribute to using the same platform, with the same grip. Once I modified the grip frame, finding the dot on the Czechmate became a non issue, and I figure I have enough reps with the Shadow that using it will always be second nature. Honestly, the hardest part of the whole process was learning how to deal with magazine capacities that were greater than 10 rounds.

[pskys2]

Little thing I noticed is practicing with optics shows issues with trigger control.  Plus for anyone who has shot much with iron sights, it's harder to get dialed in on finding that dot.

So if you are competent with iron sights, might try practicing with the dot more at speed and the iron sights for precision.  That would be working on the weakness of each platform.

Then if you have a big match with one vs the other, focus on that platform the week or two before.

[Gooldylocks]

Shooting a dot will make you a better shooter in any division. If you're good at shooting a dot quickly and accurately, you will be more aware of the sights and your trigger press when you go back to shooting irons.

[motosapiens]

29 minutes ago, Gooldylocks said:

Shooting a dot will make you a better shooter in any division. If you're good at shooting a dot quickly and accurately, you will be more aware of the sights and your trigger press when you go back to shooting irons.

this is what I am finding, but you already know that. The cool thing is you don't even have to be a big enough pansy to shoot a dot gun in matches to get the benefit of practicing with it, and you can see the effects right away while continuing to shoot the lord's own iron-sight division.

[jcc7x7]

On 11/16/2017 at 8:47 PM, motosapiens said:

this is what I am finding, but you already know that. The cool thing is you don't even have to be a big enough pansy to shoot a dot gun in matches to get the benefit of practicing with it, and you can see the effects right away while continuing to shoot the lord's own iron-sight division.

Must be talking about SINGLE STACK

[matteekay]

Must be talking about SINGLE STACK

Revolver, obviously. [emoji14]

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

[jcc7x7]

2 hours ago, matteekay said:

Revolver, obviously.

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
 

Just made Master last week in revolver.

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

Just made Master last week in revolver.

almost as cool as being the hottest dude in a skirt at the prom. 

 

but i was talking about  SS, and limited both, and even production (for the hot dudes in skirts).

[jcc7x7]

13 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

Must be talking about SINGLE STACK

 

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

almost as cool as being the hottest dude in a skirt at the prom. 

 

but i was talking about  SS, and limited both, and even production (for the hot dudes in skirts).

I wrote it must be SS and then got a retort about revolver, so made the other comment!!!! LOL

But the skirt thing is another story,

Lots of blokes wearing Kilts recently!!!

The wool is a bit much for me though! LOL again

[CHLChris]

I have been an exclusive dot shooter, having been one of the first in my area adopting CO a couple years ago.  And then I won a SA Range Officer and decided to try my hand at SS for a few matches.  My problem was a focus issue.  For any dot gun, my focus is on the target, but with a front sight fiber, I find I have big problems with both eyes open.  The only way I can get a good sight picture is to squint my left eye.  What a pain in the rear!  And a real time-waster.