how to deal with cheaters in this sport

[Singlestack]

To statement one.... not a single person on your squad KNEW what was going on. Everyone ASSumed that they knew what was going on.

Exactly. Never assume someone is cheating. Also, its not a good idea to accuse someone of cheating on this forum without rock solid proof. You never know if they will read your words.

[Seth]

There's only one winner in each Division. Class acknowledgment is a nice way of giving you some equity between competitors, but ultimately, there's only on HOA per Division. I'm a middle C shooter, but, who cares? It means I'm about 50% as good as a GM.

My point is that squabbling at our level is a collosal waste of time. Your day would be substantially better if your attention was focused about your own performance. Unless you're TGO griping about Tomasie's ammo, you're probably wasting your energy.

[BlackBuzzard]

I think cheating with any benefit in minor would be tough to pull off.

0.9gn of TG will squib in my 40SW.......dont know what it takes to just squirt out the bullet.

3.1gn of TG is like 122 power factor, had one stovepipe malfunction, and cases ejected a lame 12 inches.

3.2gn of TG is 133 power factor.......a rather dramatic improvement with a mere + 0.1 grains.....not sure why.

To FEEL a difference and run well, one would almost have to respring the gun. And then respring again for honest powerfactor on the steel or the slide would slam home extra hard???

I guess major would be a different story.

BB

[shred]

It took me a while to realize that you have to be 100% honest with yourself in order to progress far in this sport.

True cheaters do poorly in the long run.

[VegasOPM]

Are you sure that guy wasn't me about 6 years ago? I was once accused of shooting sub-major .40 loads due to the lack of muzzle flip and quick splits. They clocked in at 180 PF- I just have a gorilla grip. Of course I missed really fast, since I wasn't aiming. I slowed down and got much better- let that guy learn too.

[lugnut]

My point is that squabbling at our level is a collosal waste of time. Your day would be substantially better if your attention was focused about your own performance.

That sums it up quite nicely.

[Carmoney]

More importantly, there is no advantage to going sub-minor in Production. The reason being poppers, especially at a big match. They tend to go heavy as the match progresses and may not go down. I load my stuff aroung 132 pf. When I hit a popper I want it to go down with authority---I don't want to stand there and look at if I need to move on to the next shooting area. The other reason is that I like a quicker cycle of the hotter loads; it helps my rhythm and I have better splits.

So, you see, the guy may be putting himself at a disadvantage.

Exactly correct. If the guy is actually shooting sub-minor stuff, he's just an idiot, that's all.

[rupie]

When I shoot 147's with solo 1000 and then shoot next to someone shooting factory 115's you would never think that they are the same calibre, both legal to shoot. I'm thinking about trying 160 grain bullets. Probibility wont though the 147's are a little sluggy when compared to lighter bullets.

[AlamoShooter]

some good advise here. and no I guess we will never know if he was or not, but this wasn't an athletic guy nor musclular guy either, very skinny and scrawny (not knocking that either), it's just everyone on the squad had a pretty good idea of what was going on.

and as Alamoshooter said, I did LET HIM get into my head and it really hurt my game ALOT that day. I guess that was the question that I was asking was how do you just block this and move on? how do you get stuff like that out of your head?

That is good that you realized that the main problem is with you. If it is not this guy doing this , it will be the next guy doing that.

? How to keep them out!? is part of life's path. =Its the Zen path of shooting. If you can use this lesson you can climb to the next level.

The #1 thing is Don't let it IN your head in the first place. and if you have to get something out, replace the thought with something new. Like if it starts to get to you just put a picture of him shooting an air-soft gun in place of what he is shooting. your brain will get a laugh out of it.

PM me if you want more help

JF

Oh , -"Cheater"- is a very Big! word. Normally I would not even put a response in a post with that word in it. I think it is a strong a word as an insult would be to someones wife. Tread lightly when you tip over a barrel of snakes

Edited November 12, 2008 by AlamoShooter

[Neomet]

As a mid level C shooter who is really competitive with himself I have never once worried about somebody beating me by dropping below PF. First I would have to assume that the tenth or so gained per followup shot is what beat me. I am rarely that close to another competitor after a 4 or 5 stage match. Secondly, what difference does it really make if I win C class or come in 15th? The matches I have felt good after are the ones where I shot to my potential. I doubt even if I somehow beat the top B class shooter that Tanfoglio is going to drop Eric or Henning and pick me up as their sponsored shooter or that groupies will suddenly appear at my door. Lastly, and most importantly it simply makes what I do for fun not fun. It isn't worth the effort.

Just my .02.

[dleat]

Every moment you spend on finding fault with another shooter is a valuable moment you didn`t spend learning. Don`t waste that time. It occurs only once in your life.

[Merlin Orr]

Words from a wise man....

There are two kinds of worldly passions that defile and cover over the pure,

true nature.

The first is the passion for analysis and discussion by which people become

confused in judgement.

The second is the passion for emotional experience by

which people's values become confused.

-Buddha

[caspian guy]

The way I look at it is that my goal is to turn in the best performance I can. What others do is irrelevant. Indeed it is not really worth thinking about since there is nothing I can do about it. If I shoot the best match I can I have done all I can do.

Peter Adams

FY-39604

Edited November 12, 2008 by caspian guy

[atbarr]

If I shoot the best match I can I have done all I can do.

That's the key, trying to beat your last time. Shooting is a lot like golf, it's you against the COF.

A.T.

[Cuz]

I doubt even if I somehow beat the top B class shooter that Tanfoglio is going to drop Eric or Henning and pick me up as their sponsored shooter or that groupies will suddenly appear at my door. Lastly, and most importantly it simply makes what I do for fun not fun. It isn't worth the effort.

Just my .02.

So then who do you need to beat to get the groupies to show up???? Tell me please?

-Cuz

[soundwave]

Looking back at some of my videos, my G34 has next to no recoil with loads that I have chronoed at 136 PF. Looks like I was shooting a bb gun at times. I wouldn't judge the guy so quickly.

And besides, if he is cheating the PF, it will only hurt him in the long run. I am always much more concerned with improving my own shooting, rather than worrying about the next guy.

Go shoot and have fun.

[Allgoodhits]

A cheater is one who has not yet mastered one's own self worth. With out self worth, what ever you achieve is worth nothing to others or one's self. The worth like water will seek it's own level.

Martin

[GmanCdp]

i got the chance to shoot some of JoeD's 160gr 9mm's this year..they were sweeeeeet..and soooft...hardly any report at all..they made PF just fine..

[A-shot]

I have not been on this forum in so long, but some stuff never changes. Merlin, awesome quote...

[PINMAN44]

Just shoot your own game, focus on getting better with what you have and don't worry about what others are doing. This sport is about fun, try to enjoy it.

[Neomet]

+1 Merlin. I thought I was our resident Buddhist!

[JimmyZip]

A cheater is one who has not yet mastered one's own self worth. With out self worth, what ever you achieve is worth nothing to others or one's self. The worth like water will seek it's own level.

Martin

This tooo is a good nugget! Very nice Martin.

[38superman]

When I took my level I RO seminar, the instructor started to talk about some of the ways people cheat and what to watch for.

I was totally blown away.

I never even considered the possibility that someone would cheat in one of our competitions.

I can't begin to get my head wrapped around it.

Where in lies the honor or glory or satisfaction or whatever winning brings, if you won it falsely.

I couldn't look at a trophy I'd won in that fashion.

It would be cheap and meaningless.

Why would anyone do such a thing?

What would be the point?

Tls

Edited November 16, 2008 by 38superman

[j1b]

I know there are two types of threads out there on this type of topic.

I'm with everyone else in that you gotta shoot your own game. That is paramount to success, not just in relation to this issue but also in terms of your overall shooting performance. The reality for nearly all of us is that there was a day when we just focused on our own shooting performance and as a result we shot better.

Secondarily, I'd guard against making assumptions under the pretense that this was. Let me refer back the the 9x25 days. When we started we were using H110 and let me tell you - making major was tough. We were cramming more powder in those dang things then you could shake a stick at. So most of the time (this was many years ago) we were running 179-180 power factor. Very close to the mandatory 175. But to hear those guns - hell - nobody would have ever doubted they were even close. The were loud!!! and yet barely major.

Finally, can I just say it really doesn't matter. And I don't mean that from a "get it out of your head" standpoint. I mean it flat out does not matter. Think you'd shoot your stages that much better if you were shooting a .22 versus a .45? Maybe. But I sincerely doubt it. So much of this game is about seeing, and consistency. Such that if you are shooting 195 power factor day in and day out or shooting 125 power factor - as long as you are consistent that's what counts. There is likely little advantage to one over the other if changed out constantly. I guess in the early stages of shooting it may make a difference . . . I don't know.

I'll never forget the quote that Rob and Brian figured out many moons ago. If you have one miss in a match it nullifies any advantage any component of equipment brought to the table. That applies to everything. Comps, scopes, capacity, power factor etc. etc.

That's just my $.02. I gave a smart allec response on the other thread but it is a point that I personally hold myself accountable to. I love it when the stars align and I or other's of the more honest pursuasion are able to continuously beat those that tend to want to win through alternative methods (cheating).

Jack

[dcarter]

A victory won even when others are not following the rules, is a much sweeter win.