Who Here Carries???

[Chuck D]

Easy with the lawyers stuff......

Thank your lucky stars that Grand Juries are made up of "regular people" who understand a railroad job when they see one.

Most A.D.A.'s want NOTHING to do with indicting Joe Average for defending themselves. It's usually done to quiet the critics. Their not looking for an indictment, just closure.

Rule #1- Answer ONLY what's asked of you and offer NO statements until YOUR lawyer has arrived.

[Duane Thomas]

Well, I think a lot of people here already know the answer to this question for me, but:

I carry a Wilson Defensive Combat Pistol, a "street custom," full-sized, steel framed, 1911 .45 auto, in a Blade-Tech Standard Belt Holster. It's the same gun I use in IDPA and USPSA. Same holster I use in IDPA - and I think I'm about to make the jump to using my carry gear in USPSA, as well. Blade-Tech double mag pouch. The gun and both spare mags are loaded with 230-gr. Hydra Shoks.

I don't worry about being accused of "practicing by shooting humanoid targets." You mean, like the police use B27s? Competence is always more defensible than incompetence. I was practicing to be competent, so that, God forbid I ever needed to use my gun "for real," my bullets would go where they needed to instead of endangering innocent bystanders. And that's not a "lawyer line," that's the honest truth.

[EricW]

OK, the thread skeptic will now chime in.

(By the way, I'm really ecstatically happy with the civil tone and relatively non-judgemental atmosphere this thread has maintained. It says a lot about the locals.)

My carry guns are a G19 or a G27, depending on where I am. There is nothing I do with either that is not utterly, tactically incorrect. (I can hear DR screaming in the wilderness already.) I use Saf-T-Blocks in both. Gasp! The horror!! The G19 lives in a North Face fanny pack and goes jogging with me every day. I never take it out and clean it or wipe the sweat off. Gasp! The G26 spends a lot of time in the front pocket of my cargo shorts. Gasp! I use reloads for carry ammo. Gasp!

I used to worry about all kinds of crap. Stupid Lawyer Tricks. "Killer Reloads." Rotating my ammo every 39 1/2 days. Having the latest, super-trick concealment leather.... Now, I don't worry about much of anything. I've got a system and it works for me.

FWIW....

[SJ]

Almost 24/7 here. During the day my USPSA G20 rides in my satchel, sadly can't carry on the body at work. Other times, wintertime is G29 using IWB Sidearmor hoslter and mag & flashlight, summer is same G29 in pocket of big shorts with spare mag in other side cargo pocket. Georgia Arms 10mm 180gr Gold Dots. I just got a G21 and will be converting it to use as my carry and home gun, so that I can do more custom stuff to the G20 for limited class without feeling worried. But as has been mentioned, better to be judged than carried, etc...

[reneet]

Almost all the time ~ at work, shopping, out and about.

S&W 3913 TSW in a Galco fanny pack. Also just found that the FOBUS holster for Sig will fit so will be purchasing one in the near future.

[AikiDale]

For a newbie shooter I am old enough to have too many guns. Sometimes I carry a 1911 singlestack of either the Colt or Kimber persuasion. Sometimes a S&W 4" model 29. Tonight it is a BulM5, the fixed sight version of the Kimber Polylmer Gold Match I shot L-10 this weekend. I also have used the others in Limited or Limited-10 USPSA matches, or in IDPA matches.

[drift] if I could just figure out which one I like best I could settle into one division with one gun and start moving up the classification chart [/drift]

And I carry Federal Hydra Shoks unless I am at the range. Soon as I win a big lottery I'll practice with them...

[MBaneACP]

Carry every day.

Most-of-the-time gun is STI LS-9 9mm overhauled by Burns Custom Pistol (with metalwork by Heinie, who put on a set of his full-sized night sights rather than the mini STI versions) in an Alessi IWB. This gun shoots lighter than any other little blaster I've ever handled. Ammo is Hornady 124-grain JHPs.

Summertime shorts and tee-shirt gun is .380 Colt Mustang overhauled by Scott, McDougal in one of two Pocket Concealment System holsters--an appendex carry belt holster for wear under trashy Hawaiian shirts and a pocket holster for all-around use. Ammo is Winchester Silvertips.

Occasionally carry an S&W 296 .44 Special as a trail gun, especially during irritable bear season, with 200-grain hard cast hot reloads. I have a couple of different bag systems I use, depending on my primary backpack/hydration system.

Finally, there's the Kel-Tec .32 for when I'm not carrying a gun.

Michael B

[wlktheduk]

Professionally or personally carrying?

In almost 28 years of law enforcement, what I've carried has changed with the times, and who I was working for. I started with a .38 revolver, and have used Colt, S&W and Ruger, loaded with anything from a 158 grain lead round nose, to 110 grain +P+ jacketed hollow points. During a 2-year period, I was allowed to carry a .45ACP 1911A1, with 230 grain FMJ ball. Since 1988, I've used a 9MM automatic, and depending on the duty, either a double action only or a traditional double action (DA/SA) with usually 115 grain JHP's The 9MM pistols have been Smith & Wesson, Ruger & Sig-Sauer.

On my own time, I've carried everything from a .25ACP mouse gun to a .45ACP

Usually, a Sig-Sauer P228 9MM or a Walther PPK/s .380 can be found on or about my person these days.

IMHO, it's not as much about what you carry, as it is about what you bring with you.

[twix]

Wallet in one pocket, KT32 in the other. Oh wait, this is about carrying a handgun. Ah, G35 is always near.

If I ever get really concerned I just hang out with the Blue Rhino. He's usually better armed than a light infantry unit.

Edited to add: Wlkthedck! Welcome to the Enosverse!

[rhino]

If I ever get really concerned I just hang out with the Blue Rhino. He's usually better armed than a light infantry unit.

Better safe than sorry, I say!

And I always like to bring an "extra" for a friend!

[Sam]

I've been carrying the same Springfield Armory .45 for 18 years. About 7 years ago we got CCW here. When I went to get mine, the Sheriff who knows me well, winked and said, "Well, I'm glad you decided to get legal."

And I all the timeI thought I was puttin' one over on him.

[kellyn]

As a prosecutor who has evaluated lots of cases in which people have claimed self-defense, I have to comment on ChuckDs statements, most of which I agree with.

The Grand Jury is a good thing. They provide a brake on prosecutors who just might file anything under the sun. There are 16 people who usually have a good deal of common sense (or at least most do). They weigh evidence and make good decisions. In thousands of GJ presentations, I have only seen a few where I thought the GJ got it wrong. Some prosecutors take cases to the GJ knowing/hoping/wishing that the GJ will NOT indict. This is often done to appease media and/or victims. I don't do it in my practice, I only present cases where I believe the suspect is guilty and I have a reasonable likelihood of conviction at trial.

I have to disagree with the comment about answering only what is asked and offering no statements to the police. If you blast someone in self-defense, you should make sure the police are notified (be careful what you say to dispatch) but once they get there I would only tell them some along the lines of "I was in fear of my life (or me, my kids, my wife), I'm upset, no offense but I'd like to speak to a lawyer." The police won't get offended, you have a constitutional right to do so. You want the police (and the prosecutor reviewing the case!!!!!) to know you were acting in self-defense but you don't want to start babbling. Then get a good lawyer right away and have them deal with the DA.

What most people fail to understand about a self-defense scenario (or any criminal case), is that the most important moment is the charging decision, that moment when the prosecutor decides to file charges or not (this is not a police decision). You have to let the prosecutor know what happened but you should let your attorney do most of the work. That's why you need to get an attorney ASAP and have the contact the prosecutor with your side of the story before that decision is made. I guess the old saw "better being tried by 12 , than carried by 6" is true but you want to avoid being tried by the 12 at all costs. Facing felony criminal charges is EXTREMELY life altering. Sure you MAY win at trial but if it gets to that point, your life is in wreckage. House mortgaged or sold to pay for defense, you may be in custody while the case goes along, reputation ruined, job lost etc. etc.

Most prosecutors have no problem with people defending themselves. I declined charges on many aggravated assault cases where the shooter/gunpointer had a reasonable fear for their safety. But that's me. There are prosecutors (not the majority, at least in Arizona) who don't think that people should be able to use lethal force despite what the law says. But county attorneys don't get relected by prosecuting civilians who shoot burglars and rapists (again, at least in Arizona). I can only think of one case where I thought a prosecution (not by me!) proceeded on what I thought was a clear cut case of self-defense. But that case had kind of a happy ending, with a misdemeanor resolution.

Oh and I carry a Glock 27 with 180 gr. golden sabers or hydra-shocks or a souped up Colt 1911 with 230 gr. hydra-shocks. Sometimes in summer specials or sometimes just "mexican carry." I think the gun media (Massad Ayoob in particular) has made to much of a "1911" issue. The decision to use lethal force relies on whether the person was in reasonable fear for their or a 3d party's life. That decision has nothing to do with whatever firearms you're packing.

[SAB]

I used to carry all the time, but I recently moved to a no-CCW state

I feel nekkid!

SAB

[Quixote]

Springfield V10 with 185 Gr. Federal Hydra-Shok in a Kydex Paddle holster. Comfortable on the hip, and easily concealed under a lightweight shirt.

[texasag93]

Only when I travel. Glock 22 TXAG

[Nate]

kellyn,

THANKS for the pile of good info. I suppose I might have known all those things but those are significant considerations presented in a understandable way (important as I am simple). I also printed your response and gave it to my wife. I pray we never need to use that level of force. Nate

[paraman1]

I carry in my truck everywhere and am one of 2 people allowed to keep a gun in my toolbox at work . I generally carry a Springfield Operator in my Milt Sparks Versa max 2 but currently have that setup for sale . I will probably be getting a compact 9mm to replace this setup as am tired of carrying big guns (my previous carry gun was a Para p-16).

[crazyaboutguns]

As a prosecutor who has evaluated lots of cases in which people have claimed self-defense, I have to comment on ChuckDs statements, most of which I agree with.

The Grand Jury is a good thing. They provide a brake on prosecutors who just might file anything under the sun. There are 16 people who usually have a good deal of common sense (or at least most do). They weigh evidence and make good decisions. In thousands of GJ presentations, I have only seen a few where I thought the GJ got it wrong. Some prosecutors take cases to the GJ knowing/hoping/wishing that the GJ will NOT indict. This is often done to appease media and/or victims. I don't do it in my practice, I only present cases where I believe the suspect is guilty and I have a reasonable likelihood of conviction at trial.

I have to disagree with the comment about answering only what is asked and offering no statements to the police. If you blast someone in self-defense, you should make sure the police are notified (be careful what you say to dispatch) but once they get there I would only tell them some along the lines of "I was in fear of my life (or me, my kids, my wife), I'm upset, no offense but I'd like to speak to a lawyer." The police won't get offended, you have a constitutional right to do so. You want the police (and the prosecutor reviewing the case!!!!!) to know you were acting in self-defense but you don't want to start babbling. Then get a good lawyer right away and have them deal with the DA.

What most people fail to understand about a self-defense scenario (or any criminal case), is that the most important moment is the charging decision, that moment when the prosecutor decides to file charges or not (this is not a police decision). You have to let the prosecutor know what happened but you should let your attorney do most of the work. That's why you need to get an attorney ASAP and have the contact the prosecutor with your side of the story before that decision is made. I guess the old saw "better being tried by 12 , than carried by 6" is true but you want to avoid being tried by the 12 at all costs. Facing felony criminal charges is EXTREMELY life altering. Sure you MAY win at trial but if it gets to that point, your life is in wreckage. House mortgaged or sold to pay for defense, you may be in custody while the case goes along, reputation ruined, job lost etc. etc.

Most prosecutors have no problem with people defending themselves. I declined charges on many aggravated assault cases where the shooter/gunpointer had a reasonable fear for their safety. But that's me. There are prosecutors (not the majority, at least in Arizona) who don't think that people should be able to use lethal force despite what the law says. But county attorneys don't get relected by prosecuting civilians who shoot burglars and rapists (again, at least in Arizona). I can only think of one case where I thought a prosecution (not by me!) proceeded on what I thought was a clear cut case of self-defense. But that case had kind of a happy ending, with a misdemeanor resolution.

Oh and I carry a Glock 27 with 180 gr. golden sabers or hydra-shocks or a souped up Colt 1911 with 230 gr. hydra-shocks. Sometimes in summer specials or sometimes just "mexican carry." I think the gun media (Massad Ayoob in particular) has made to much of a "1911" issue. The decision to use lethal force relies on whether the person was in reasonable fear for their or a 3d party's life. That decision has nothing to do with whatever firearms you're packing.

Having attended three Ayoob classes, I disagree. The 1911 firearm was designed and is optimized as

an offense weapon for wartime. It was not, and is not presently configured for the legal, moral and practical

aspects of self defense, which are by definition responsive to a threat, not initiation of assault.

[Run n Gun]

Mr. Sparks,

I started to write a long point-by-point rebuttal to your statement, but my time runs short.

To summarize; I COMPLETELY disagree with every single point you’ve made.

Respectfully,

Ed Dailey

PS My “carry gun” is a 3” Colt 1911, 45 ACP.

[rhino]

I started to write a long point-by-point rebuttal to your statement, but my time runs short. 

To summarize; I COMPLETELY disagree with every single point you’ve made.

I agree with you, Ed.

[Flexmoney]

I do, and do not, agree, and disagree, with all of the points that weren't made.

[Steve Anderson]

I've always had a little trouble with "1911s are bad to carry for legal reasons" argument.

Then again, Ayoob has been in court a zillion times talking about this stuff...

It just seems to me that the whole question is, "Did the defendant have a legal/moral reason to use deadly force?"

Once you've answered that, the rest seems like small stuff.

However, my over-simplified scenario assumes intelligence and impartiality on the part of the prosecutor.

I don't carry a 1911 because:

1. They are not the most reliable platform available

2. I carry appendix, pointed at the jewels, and prefer the Kahr trigger travel's margin of safety. If I carried open, I would have no reservations about this. It's not the cocked action, it's the short travel. Same with Glocks, too short a travel in the trigger for me to carry appendix IWB.

Now about Ohio's affirmative defense...

SA

[Sam]

Depending on where you live, Ayoob's advice could be pretty important. I live in a state and county where the prevailing sentiment is that everyone has a right to defend themselves from serious injury. It is understood among the general populace that a person packing a 454 Casull is probably just being prudent.

Our very own Chief of Police got scuffed up pretty bad by a griz a few years ago and had to shoot the animal with his .270. One or two stories like that in the newspaper every year and people understand that a guy with a 1911 isn't trying to be Dirty Harry. (There is usually a picture of the guy in his hospital bed, with a lopsided grin under a ton of bandages on his head. )

If I lived in a state/county where politicians openly advocated gun control just to get elected, I would choose the safest most PC pistola that I could find.

Steve, a 1911 isn't the most reliable platform available???

INCOMING!!!

[rhino]

The important things are:

1. That you are justified in using lethal force in the first place. If that's true, you're mostly in the clear with regard to criminal liability because it doesn't matter what you use if you really feared for your life, etc.

2. That when it comes to civil liability, you are able to clearly articulate why you chose your specific carry gun, the modifications you made, and why those are good things. "Because I read it in a magazine" probably won't cut it, but if you can establish that you've trained with a specific weapon and its trigger actually minimizes your chances of missing, then you're going to be okay. I think even Ayoob will agree with that . . . make your choices and be able to explain them effectively.

Of course, if you have a negligent discharge, then "evil features" are going to probably be a bigger problem than if you're involved in a shooting where all of your rounds went to stop the threat.

[Sam]

Kyle, just for the record, I'm only talking about the political climate.