Open / L-10 Nats Banter

[Coach]

Does the contract USPSA has with USSA stipulate the month the match ahs to be shot? Would it be feasible to go back and do so in another month that at least has a chance to be drier?

[dirty whiteboy]

Now for a bit of humor, ask Open B Class Champion Fireant and partner in crime Kenny D what happens when you forget to take all the loose ammo out of your shorts before taking them through the Tulsa Airport security in your carry on bags.

Do we need to take up a collection for bail $$?

[XD Niner]

No, they were let off with time served after nearly an hour of filling out paperwork for the Government. They are now officially U. S. Certified Idiots!

kend said he begged the TSA guy for a cavity search but it was a no go.

Edited September 15, 2008 by XD Niner

[shred]

We got plenty of rain Saturday afternoon.. we were told to arrive at 10:30... and promptly sat around until our originally scheduled 1:00 start time since stage 11 was so backed up. Lucky for us the forecast inch of rain and 40 mph winds starting at 1:00 didn't get there until after 5. We still got plenty of rain, but not much wind. Alamoshooter was the last shooter of the match, finishing right around 5. We even had to shove another squad off a stage for a while (sorry folks) to get done by that time, and we started the day with only 4 stages to shoot.

I finished amazingly high for how otherwise lackluster I shot. A couple A-M-NS combos, both by half an inch on my 2nd to last stage threw me out of the top 20, but I bet most of the folks in the top 40 could say something similar..

[Tengu]

I haven't had the pleasure of shooting the Nationals the past two years, but three years ago when I competed in Tulsa the weather was beautiful (maybe a bit cold in the morning). My earlier joke about the Mud Bowl aside, I think that foul weather can be a problem at any match venue; snow in Bend and 110 degree heat in Barry at past Nationals come to mind. Two years of rain in a row is probably more coincidence than anything, and holding a major match anywhere in any season can be a gamble. I know that Tom Fee and his staff at USSA have worked extremely hard to put on great matches, and hopefully in the future the drainage issues can be resolved. As far as the weather goes, that is in more competent hands than ours, and we'll just have to hope for the best wherever the match is held

[BritinUSA]

Squad 6 started at 8am on Thursday and did not finish our allotted stages until 3:30pm on the first day (7.5 hours), we were supposed to finish at 11:30am. We got to the range ready to go at 11:30 am on Friday and started at 1pm so the morning squads could get some more stages in. We finished our allotted stages and then were told to keep moving onwards until 7pm or so, we did 19 and stage 1 (finished at 7:30pm) which we were due to do on Saturday (on the range for 6.5 hours).

We were told to be on the range the next day at 7am to finish our last 4 stages... The match seemed to last forever. We had rain on Thursday for all stages except the last one and clear for the rest of the match.

[SteveZ]

I was thinking about doing the Nationals in 2009 (I wasn't able to make it this year due to financial constraints) however after seeing the pictures of the range this year....and the pictures of the range from the 2007 Nationals (another mud bowl)...I'm having serious reservations about attending the Nationals next year and taking the chance of blowing a bunch of money at the risk of yet another mud bowl.

I realize that you can't do much about the weather...but scheduling the Nationals at a location that is in direct line of hurricanes during hurricane season....is well...stupid!

[Jake Di Vita]

I like the weather personally - the worse the weather, the better I like it...anyone can shoot in beautiful sunny weather.

Just another distraction from the shooting.

[BritinUSA]

The weather is something that we cannot control. The variances in the range surface is another matter and caused some competitors to be at a significant disadvantage. This is not just an opinion, it is a fact. The stages are supposed to provide the same challenge to all shooters, these did not.

Shooters who shot a particular stage on Friday morning had a couple of inches of mud, shooters in the afternoon on the same stage had 6-8" of mud, it was impossible to move as fast as those that shot with 'cleaner' conditions. If the shooter slipped on the thick mud then the shooter lost time, through no fault of the shooter.

All this is just water under the bridge now, but there are lessons to be learned from this experience that were clearly not learned since the last 'mud bowl'. The photo's of the range are all over the internet and I have little doubt that some RD's at the IPSC World Assembly will use that evidence to guide their decision away from USA hosting a WS.

[Rob Boudrie]

No, they were let off with time served after nearly an hour of filling out paperwork for the Government.

A stray round in checked luggage can cause considerable difficulty if it is not in a factory box, and there is no spare hole in one of your factory boxes in which to put it. Written reports to the local PD, TSA and airline ... and an offer from the airline to "store the round until you return from the trip".

[Fireant]

No, they were let off with time served after nearly an hour of filling out paperwork for the Government.

A stray round in checked luggage can cause considerable difficulty if it is not in a factory box, and there is no spare hole in one of your factory boxes in which to put it. Written reports to the local PD, TSA and airline ... and an offer from the airline to "store the round until you return from the trip".

I'm afraid that these rounds were not in the checked bags, they were in the carry on. As they say, you learn something new everyday. It's just a harder lesson on some days.

[XD Niner]

I realize that you can't do much about the weather...but scheduling the Nationals at a location that is in direct line of hurricanes during hurricane season....is well...stupid!

In defense of the range and match organizers, very little of the rain was due to Ike. The damage was done by a common storm front that moved through the area on Wednesday and Thursday. This was well in advance of Ike's landfall. These storms occur all the time in the summer months.

Edited September 15, 2008 by XD Niner

[KGentry]

I realize that you can't do much about the weather...but scheduling the Nationals at a location that is in direct line of hurricanes during hurricane season....is well...stupid!

In defense of the range and match organizers, very little of the rain was due to Ike. The damage was done by a common storm front that moved through the area on Wednesday and Thursday. This was well in advance of Ike's landfall. These storms occur all the time in the summer months.

I think we have some smart experienced people running USPSA and I am sure that 2 years in a row without a future change to USSA range will result in a match location move. Rain all the time during those months - schedule 3 nationals in a row despite this? MMMMMMMMM

[Neomet]

After A3 I was getting ready to go through security and was emptying out my pockets. Thought I was finished but figured I would just check the cargo pockets to be sure. (I had come straight from the range.) Well, lo and behold I find one round in there that apparently worked its way out of my Barney mag.

I'm really glad I found that having just read this. Not so much for me, but for Cliff who was going through security in front of me. I would have had to tell security I thought I felt him slide it in my pocket as we were standing in line. :devil:

[AZGunut]

Hi everyone,

We just got in from Nationals after another actionpacked and fun filled 19 hour drive. As for the person who said there was only one hour of rain, our squad # 14 had rain on all of our stages on the first day (A light sprinkle after the first three shooter's of our fist stage, to a steady light rain on the second and third stage, to a serious downpour on the remaining 3 stages. Now I do not mind the rain, but ALOT of people were seriously complaining. Now I was also a little tiffed that only the Thursday morning rotation got the brunt of the rain, but we all had to play in the mud. I only wish I could understand the rational in the way they designed the draining and footing of the bays.

[davaodoc]

Hi guys,

Did Jojo Vidanes use a modified pistol to win 10th place in open? wow

[joseywales]

Obviously there's work that needs to be done on the range to address the drainage problem - but geez, in reading some of these posts you'd think that the developer built the bays to provide additional Tulsa water reservoirs and then conspired with the match organizers to order up the rain & wind just for the Open/L10 match! Voice your concerns to your AD and USPSA President - I'm sure they'll get it addressed with the range owner. It's still the best range/locaton that I've ever seen to host a USPSA match.

[Neomet]

Obviously there's work that needs to be done on the range to address the drainage problem - but geez, in reading some of these posts you'd think that the developer built the bays to provide additional Tulsa water reservoirs and then conspired with the match organizers to order up the rain & wind just for the Open/L10 match! Voice your concerns to your AD and USPSA President - I'm sure they'll get it addressed with the range owner. It's still the best range/locaton that I've ever seen to host a USPSA match.

I don't get that feel from the comments. What I hear are people noting that this is not just a "natural" a range but was actually built at no small expense with quite a bit of serious construction equipment. Usually when that happens drainage is addressed more completely. That being said I have no idea what their budget constraints were and for most of the year a "range closed" sign takes care of the problem. Also, as my dad used to say "Ain't nuthin' perfect."

JMHO. Your mileage may vary.

[XRe]

USSA started out as a great idea - but it was obvious from the inagural event that grass on the bay floors wasn't such a hot idea for a large match. I think we prove that at every range with grass bay floors, don't we? Pits dug into the start positions, tracks through the grass by mid-match, etc... Sure, it looks nice, but... I heard the comment that "Tom Fee has himself a nice country club, but a s****y shooting range" - not far off, from the standpoint of running a big USPSA/IPSC match. But, that was clear from last year, wasn't it (and probably should have been a long time ago to anyone attending a big match on a grass range)? Of course, if we'd had rain like that in Missoula, it would've sucked ass there, too... I do know the mud was responsible for at least one DQ (probably more). I watched two happen, but the other was a shooter mistake.

For such a well thought out range, the major oversight in drainage design is an obvious bungle. The word on the street (the veracity of which can't be confirmed by me) is that Tom Fee insists on having grass on the bay floors - maybe that will change... maybe not...

The biggest disappointment for me, this year, though, wasn't the drainage or ability of the range to handle large volumes of water (as I said, it was obvious that this was an issue to be expected from the beginning). It was how the place is already starting to look run down - berms showing large amounts of erosion, huge weeds growing up everywhere... Even though it had just been sodded, the range had a clean, polished look in 2006. Two years later, and its already starting to resemble any other shooting range out there. I hope that trend reverses - the sharp, precise look and feel of the range is a huge selling point, and is something easy to keep up, but hard and expensive to reclaim if its left to go to the weeds....

I agree with the sentiment above that this match just nixed any bid for a World Shoot, without MAJOR, PROMPT modifications to the range.

Other than that issue... this was a pretty solid match, overall. The staff just kicked ass. The stage designs were pretty darn good - certainly the challenge a Nationals should be. I was a little disappointed in the lack of imagination in the placement of no-shoots, and the lack of deviation from the designs of the first match. I'd have rather seen two days of switchover, with bigger changes to the courses. Almost all of the no-shoots were placed exactly the same - and in many cases the only change between the LPR and OL10 matches were the addition of no-shoots to previously wide open targets.

Turning target standards? Right on

As far as people threatening not to return... most of that is bluster, but I'm sure some folks won't unless changes are made (and I can't blame them... frankly, challenge or not, that was freakin' miserable shooting on Thursday morning, and the rest of the week was unpleasant).

Squad 10 was a joy to shoot with Y'all were why the match was still fun for me, even with all the chaos of weather and mud...

[pjb45]

According to a match staff person who was present when the berms were being made, there is packed clay underneath. This allows water to drain from the berms and stay on the ground to water the grass. There is drainage, I think it is two berms drain into a third and the third berms drains in the the late-at least on the backside.

As I understand the circumstances, new sod was laid prior to the match. The solution is not just putting dowm gravel. The packed clay subsurface will not allow the water to soak into the ground.

A real engineer needs to perform an assessment. Typically to get good drainage, large rocks need to be at the base layer with smaller rocks layered on top. The top surface can be grass or dirst or gravel. All will work if the water is allowed to adequately drain. Again, engineers solve this type of problem all the time.

After talking with an Area Director on Wednesday, the BOD would very much like to set the dates for the match a year in advance. However, there are allows issues which preclude that from happening such as World Shoots, other Area Matches and the schedule at the Venue. So just saying the dates need to be moved is a quick response but not necessarily a viable answer.

Mike Seeklander was very much aware of the situation during the match. He suffered along with everyone else. He too, would like to find the correct solution. As much as we all gain some measure of relief from complaining or acknowledging the problem, the bottom line is that the Mikes are looking at a number of possible of solutions.

Tulsa is a great town and USSA is a great venue. In a short period of time it has shown itself to be a great potential. I am confident that the drainage issue will be resolved.

However, I am not sure if the course designers will be able to utilize the potential of the berms. The analogy I liked of the courses was like painting a postage stamp on a 4 foot by 4 foot canvas. All that space and such little shooting areas. Gee Whiz-- we have these huge berms and they designed stages that were so tight and small it was comical. The half circle (17?) and the bridge (18?) were the only stages that even came close to using full size of the berm. Ok maybe the car stage which had 35 yard targets with no shoots. It seemed like there were a lot of take three steps shot, take seven steps turn a corner then shoot, etc. UGH! As one GM said, it was like moving in second gear all the time.

[G-ManBart]

However, I am not sure if the course designers will be able to utilize the potential of the berms. The analogy I liked of the courses was like painting a postage stamp on a 4 foot by 4 foot canvas. All that space and such little shooting areas. Gee Whiz-- we have these huge berms and they designed stages that were so tight and small it was comical. The half circle (17?) and the bridge (18?) were the only stages that even came close to using full size of the berm. Ok maybe the car stage which had 35 yard targets with no shoots. It seemed like there were a lot of take three steps shot, take seven steps turn a corner then shoot, etc. UGH! As one GM said, it was like moving in second gear all the time.

Funny, I had a very similar conversation with someone while I was driving home. They definitely had some fun stages, but I was surprised there wasn't a single stage that really had a lot of ground to cover. I think Area-2 and the Wester States Single Stack both had a stage that was probably 35yds from starting position to final shooting position and a couple that were almost as long...that rocked!

[lynn jones]

so, what your are saying is that, those big ass berm funnel all the rain to the bay surface? is there no drainage pipes? sounds like new orleans.

lynn

[CenTX]

This was my first nationals and overall I had a great time and met some great people. The officials had a tough job, most of the ROs maintained an upbeat attitude and did a great job under bad conditions. Doug Koenig joined our squad for a stage and placed himself last in the rotation to not disrupt our rotation, a class act. It was funny watching shooters doing Tactical Reloads to avoid dropping their mags in the mud.

There were plenty of things I could complain about. The rain and slick footing on some stages, the pleasant fragrance of the mud, the long waits to shot, the reshoot because an RO (not the one running me) yelled "STOP" when he thought there was a range equipment failure when there wasn't, then I had 4 mikes on the reshoot.

The thing that really made it an enjoyable match were the other shooters on Squad 19. I want to thank Nick Saiti, Matt McLearn, Rick Byfield, David Cutts, Don Hardy, James Smith and John Aull, you guys were great.

[BritinUSA]

Kudos to squad 6 for putting up with me for three whole days. Shooting with Chris, Ralph, Brad and Joe, et al was the single most enjoyable aspect of the match for me.

I enjoyed our dinner at Outback. We drove there from the match hotel, it was less than 70 yards away across the carpark; It was raining and we didn't want to get wet.

[Chuck Anderson]

There are drainage pipes on the back berm. I was at the range while they were still putting the berms in and saw them. I don't know what the final result will be with USSA. I do know that there is no place in the country that can boast perfect weather and perfect conditions for every major match, and still has the space for a Nationals. I've shot in miserable heat, pouring rain and seen tornadoes in the distance at PASA. I think it was 2001 when all the RO's had to rebuild the match after the damage done overnight. I've shot at Rio Salado in March, normally one of the nicest ranges with the best weather around, and I was snowed on and the rain came by the bucket. I've shot in Frostproof in driving rain and...well frost. Nowhere is perfect. Tulsa has had a couple rough years of weather. I think everyone at USSA is trying to fix the problem. Everyone there is committed to it's success. I know Phil and Mike didn't move to Tulsa just to see the range fail. And I know Tom well enough to know if it can be fixed, it will.

As far as the USPSA/USSA contract. The last word I heard was that it had not been approved yet. Unless someone has some credible information to the contrary, I think it is still in the works. There are a couple AD's in this thread. I'm sure if they want to they can enlighten us as to where that contract process is at.