Michaelsabre Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) Newbie’s question for knowledgeable friends: In a normal starting, may I begin with BOTH of my hands near the holster? (Instead of one hand on each side of body) I can’t be the first person having this thought Someone must have tried it before. I am in no mood to read through 122 pages of official USPSA rule book Thanks in advance! Michael Edited February 3 by Michaelsabre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blasterboy Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 If you want to be a gamer, read the rule book. Nobody is in the mood to read 122 pages to argue with you. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelsabre Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 17 minutes ago, blasterboy said: If you want to be a gamer, read the rule book. Nobody is in the mood to read 122 pages to argue with you. Lol It’s a rainy day outside. Perfect day to use brain….to gain some sneaky advantage :=) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelsabre Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 Hold down one second. That’s a brother from North Pole. So…..how is IPSC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 38 minutes ago, Michaelsabre said: Newbie’s question for knowledgeable friends: In a normal starting, may I begin with BOTH of my hands near the holster? (Instead of one hand on each side of body) I can’t be the first person having this thought Someone must have tried it before. I am in no mood to read through 122 pages of official USPSA rule book Thanks in advance! Michael Yes you can unless specified otherwise in WSB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelsabre Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 13 minutes ago, Sarge said: Yes you can unless specified otherwise in WSB Awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 The wsb will say. If its hands relaxed at sides or something else then no. If its wrists below belt sure. If it does t say you can’t most of the time you can. Familiarizing yourself with the rule book is a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Seen alot of people try to game a start position.. And it almost never works out. We tend to practice and shoot from surrender or hands hanging on each side... So much so that it is pretty much automatic. Try to throw something slick in there and you are far more likely to screw it up. I mean what are you trying to gain ? Im a has been , never really was and could hit a 1 second azones if it was an easy close target... Whats your twisted over sideways thing going to accomplish ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelsabre Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 Looks like my understanding is correct. Thank y’all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 IPSC has: "Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with the handgun loaded and holstered, and arms hanging naturally by the sides (see Appendix E2)." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 The best argument against doing this is to ask "Why?" Take a look at the BEST shooters in the world in this sport. Not the best at your club or section. Check the consistent national and world champions. I've been doing this for 30+ years and I've seen most all of them in that time. I don't recall ever seeing one of them starting like what the OP suggests. That should be telling you something right there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 A lot of the Cool Guys here start in a gunfighter crouch with their gun hand near the gun butt and their off hand hovering over their crotch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 45 minutes ago, Jim Watson said: A lot of the Cool Guys here start in a gunfighter crouch with their gun hand near the gun butt and their off hand hovering over their crotch. Kind of my point ... "Cool guys," "B grade western wannabes." How many can be said as true contenders to win the next Nationals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelsabre Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 Very well. I didn’t expect conversation went that direction. 2019 USPSA rule book change removed “hanging naturally “ request. And since 2021 equipment position diagram no longer exists. Together, these changed made it very natural to put hands closer to cut travel distance. Have I mentioned I started only 5 months ago? Those GMs had built muscle memory 10 years ago. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 20 minutes ago, Michaelsabre said: Have I mentioned I started only 5 months ago? Those GMs had built muscle memory 10 years ago. Trust me on this ... If "those" GMs thought they could gain a competitive advantage by switching to what you suggest, THEY WOULD DO IT! You might want to consider competitive strategies that are proven to work ... But, it's your choice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Lot's of people want to give their opinions, and not answer the question. You'll have to figure how to filter them as you go here. The answer, as you figured out, is yes, in a COF that simply says "wrists below belt." Some course designers get lazy writing their starting positions, some are much more careful, some just don't care, like "anywhere in the shooting area, wrists below belt." I don't put a lot of credence in the "what are the GM's doing." If so, we'd all be shooting Caniks. Once upon a time, Robbie and Brian started doing some crazy stuff that we all take for granted now, such as stance and grip. You do you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Phil Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) I think that this as everything boils down to You gotta do the work. Nothing is really free. Somebody did the work. Do the work. BTW both hands to the same side seems to me to be a great way to sweep the support hand on the draw. Also seems rather cumbersome and awkward. But maybe that's just me. Edited February 5 by Dr. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perttime Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 3 hours ago, OPENB said: ... The answer, as you figured out, is yes, in a COF that simply says "wrists below belt." .... Now, everybody, stand up and put your hands on the same side of your body. ... and check where your wrists are in relation to your belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 16 minutes ago, perttime said: Now, everybody, stand up and put your hands on the same side of your body. ... and check where your wrists are in relation to your belt. It can be done with wrists below belt... My comment is that if you switch to this start position, how much time are you going to save vs your normal hands at side? - it is not a normal start position, so you will not be as fluent as if you were to start with hands at side. more start position will be with hands at sides... - assumed you were fluent, you're going to save like 0.2 seconds (maybe - I think I'm being generous here)?? is it worth the risk for the small percentage of the time saved? - and you are talking about your weak hand, which has little to do with the motion of the gun going from holster to ready to fire position... Let's put this into perspective: you will save 0.2 sec on a 5 second stage...let's say it's a 32 round course (impossible for a 5 sec stage - but let's go with that) and you shoot all Alphas: 160/5 = 32 HF 160/4.8 = 33.33 HF So you gain just over a point on a perfect high HF stage...is it worth the risk??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davsco Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 6 hours ago, Dr. Phil said: BTW both hands to the same side seems to me to be a great way to sweep the support hand on the draw. My first thought. But try some hands positions and see what works for you. As noted above, legal unless wsb says otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelsabre Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 (edited) 5 hours ago, perttime said: Now, everybody, stand up and put your hands on the same side of your body. ... and check where your wrists are in relation to your belt. The reason I asked the question is one of “A” shooter starts like this. With right hand under belt, of course. Edited February 5 by Michaelsabre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 8 hours ago, racerba said: - assumed you were fluent, you're going to save like 0.2 seconds (maybe - I think I'm being generous its worth trying it. just to convince yourself, but imho .2 is a wild exaggeration, and so is .1. in reality, it won’t save much of anything because your left hand still has to travel the same distance. however, as an md, ro and stage designer, i specifically use vague and permissive wsb language to encourage people to overthink it and do stupid stuff instead of just shooting more points per second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 one of may favorite things to watch when ROing is when a WSB allows a shooter to put their hands wherever and someone decides that hovering just off the grip like they never ever practice is the key to a killer run. I have seen this many times and more often than not they end up with a horrible grip and end up regretting it, but it is fun to watch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 You MUST read the rules because they are authoritative, whether you feel like it or not. If you read the rules, at 3.2.1 you will find that WSB *must* include starting position, so whatever is in the WSB is controlling. If the start position in WSB doesn't prohibit both hands on one side, you're good to go. If it does, you have to comply with the WSB. There are no longer "defaults." Note that WSB doesn't "allow" things, it "specifies" things. Anything consistent with the WSB is an option. Now the obvious follow up question - WHY??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alleycatdad Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 ..and, you must also read ALL of the rules. Per the glossary, "Standing: The compeitior's body is fully erect with both feet planted firmly onthe ground or other designated position" So, "Standing with wrists below belt".... SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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