Limited optics half a year later

[CHA-LEE]

I think that LO still needs something more significantly different than CO to differentiate it enough to justify a completely different division. It has been proven countless times over the decades that the pistol used to win matches isn't the primary thing that lead to said win. Its the skill of the person shooting the pistol which is the primary differentiator when it comes to winning or losing.

 

With "The Gun doesn't matter" fact accepted, I think that USPSA should completely reassess the current Division insanity to make it less complex. All we need are 4 pistol divisions. Optics Minor, Optics Major, Irons Minor, Irons Major. Or better yet, ditch Major all together and then you only need 2 minor divisions (Irons & optics).

 

THEN you can apply a gun type/manufacture Category. That way all of the people who think that using a Glock is a disadvantage to a 2011 are only competing against their fellow "Glock" Category shooters. Doing it this way would also make it MUCH easier for matches to generate Sponsorship interest in major matches. I think it would be a pretty easy pitch to ask xyz Gun Manufacture if they would be interested in sponsoring THEIR Category. I can envision something like this.... High Glock Category, which is also Sponsored by Glock, goes to Joe Blow...

 

USPSA has always created Divisions and Gun Division Rules in a vacuum with the expectation that manufactures will actually give a crap about whatever limitations or requirements USPSA has set for their Divisions. That is completely backwards from what it should be given the overall public gun market vs the drop in the bucket practical shooting market.

[lroy]

PSCL divisions are set up that way with no major pf.

 

Irons, optics, open, pcc.

Edited December 21, 2023 by lroy

[zzt]

14 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

THEN you can apply a gun type/manufacture Category.

 

The number of Categories would greatly outnumber the number of Divisions we now have.

 

There should always be major and minor Divisions.

 

Reducing to four Divisions will set up howls of protest by those claiming it will set off an arms race.  It might, but I don't care. 

[kerneldrop]

The overall question should be how do you attract new shooters while keeping the current competitors engaged. 
 

Some may be deterred from limited optics because a $1k 2011 will be in the same division as a $5k 2011.  I know, I know, it’s the competitor not the gun. 
 

It doesn’t bother me…but I just try to be the best I can be with what I have.  And the SA folks should have a place to play besides Open. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by kerneldrop

[Joe4d]

On 12/20/2023 at 6:02 PM, CHA-LEE said:

Optics Minor, Optics Major, Irons Minor, Irons Major. Or better yet, ditch Major all together and then you only need 2 minor divisions (Irons & optics).

been saying that for years,, but I would add a low cap  10/8 division, 10 round minor 8 round major division as a catchall for mag ban states, revolvers and 1911's...  

[MHicks]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

been saying that for years,, but I would add a low cap  10/8 division, 10 round minor 8 round major division as a catchall for mag ban states, revolvers and 1911's...  

 

As an avid SS shooter for years I've thought it might work combining Production, SS, Limited 10 with the 10minor/8 major scoring.  Only because of the dwindling participation in those divisions.  But now with Production going to 15 that kind of messes that idea up.

Edited December 25, 2023 by MHicks
Spellibg error

[NoahBeretta]

On 12/25/2023 at 1:40 PM, MHicks said:

 

As an avid SS shooter for years I've thought it might work combining Production, SS, Limited 10 with the 10minor/8 major scoring.  Only because of the dwindling participation in those divisions.  But now with Production going to 15 that kind of messes that idea up.

If anything, Production going to 15 strengthens the case for combining L10 and SS.

[Shootingaggie]

PCC doesn’t Seem to be going anywhere, so might as well rope it in with the pack

[motosapiens]

11 minutes ago, Shootingaggie said:

PCC doesn’t Seem to be going anywhere, so might as well rope it in with the pack

or relegate it to separate matches so we can go back to funner stages.

[MHicks]

3 hours ago, NoahBeretta said:

If anything, Production going to 15 strengthens the case for combining L10 and SS.

 

If the 3 divisions were combined, SS, L10 and Production , there might be a decent number of shooters for a division. With just SS and L10 there won't be enough to matter. 

[andy27al]

Despite the slight similarities between the two, LO and CO are by far the most popular divisions at the matches I shoot.

 

As has been said above, it will be difficult to argue with what the majority wants to shoot. At the last two matches (in different areas), there was not a single Production, SS, or limited gun in sight. 
 

LO also allows people to enjoy shooting an almost-open gun without having to worry about major PF and the complexities it brings with reloading/finding major ammo, tuning, etc. 

[Blaize]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:02 PM, CHA-LEE said:

I think that LO still needs something more significantly different than CO to differentiate it enough to justify a completely different division. It has been proven countless times over the decades that the pistol used to win matches isn't the primary thing that lead to said win. Its the skill of the person shooting the pistol which is the primary differentiator when it comes to winning or losing.

 

With "The Gun doesn't matter" fact accepted, I think that USPSA should completely reassess the current Division insanity to make it less complex. All we need are 4 pistol divisions. Optics Minor, Optics Major, Irons Minor, Irons Major. Or better yet, ditch Major all together and then you only need 2 minor divisions (Irons & optics).

 

THEN you can apply a gun type/manufacture Category. That way all of the people who think that using a Glock is a disadvantage to a 2011 are only competing against their fellow "Glock" Category shooters. Doing it this way would also make it MUCH easier for matches to generate Sponsorship interest in major matches. I think it would be a pretty easy pitch to ask xyz Gun Manufacture if they would be interested in sponsoring THEIR Category. I can envision something like this.... High Glock Category, which is also Sponsored by Glock, goes to Joe Blow...

 

USPSA has always created Divisions and Gun Division Rules in a vacuum with the expectation that manufactures will actually give a crap about whatever limitations or requirements USPSA has set for their Divisions. That is completely backwards from what it should be given the overall public gun market vs the drop in the bucket practical shooting market.

this is the way…. Couldn’t agree more and this is coming from someone who loves the pistol shooting sports, but is deterred due to the nonsense rules/divisions that is USPSA. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Blaize

[Hoops]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:30 AM, motosapiens said:

haha, i was having that same struggle until I shot my limited gun in a match with a dovetail optic plate. Most fun (and best shooting) I've done in a while. I am now committed to LO for 2024.

@motosapiens you shoot SCSA.  I’m curious of what your opinion is for SCSA allowing LO.

 

every week at a SCSA match I’m asked about LO.  When a USPSA shooter shows up with their LO gun, they are disappointed and confused why LO is not allowed.

 

thanks

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Hoops said:

@motosapiens you shoot SCSA.  I’m curious of what your opinion is for SCSA allowing LO.

 

every week at a SCSA match I’m asked about LO.  When a USPSA shooter shows up with their LO gun, they are disappointed and confused why LO is not allowed.

 

thanks

for steel challenge with no reloads and no power factor it seems like a 2011 should be comfortable in open. steel has way too many irons divisions too.

[shred]

You'd think so, but the instant readiness is not there with a LO gun compared to a real Open gun even for steel.  Doesn't matter so much if you never miss, but there are very few people that can do that at speed through the entire match.

 

 

[MHicks]

What level of PF are most Open shooters using for steel challenge?

[ddc]

3 hours ago, shred said:

You'd think so, but the instant readiness is not there with a LO gun compared to a real Open gun even for steel.  Doesn't matter so much if you never miss, but there are very few people that can do that at speed through the entire match.

 

 

 

Why does it matter whether you miss or not? (New to steel challenge question!)

 

Aren't you moving to the next shot regardless of whether you miss or hit? And then coming back if you have a miss?

 

 

[shred]

12 hours ago, ddc said:

 

Why does it matter whether you miss or not? (New to steel challenge question!)

 

Aren't you moving to the next shot regardless of whether you miss or hit? And then coming back if you have a miss?

 

 

Not if you call a bad shot.  Make it up right there and then.  Going back is slower.  Also might be the stop plate.

[motosapiens]

15 hours ago, shred said:

You'd think so, but the instant readiness is not there with a LO gun compared to a real Open gun even for steel.  Doesn't matter so much if you never miss, but there are very few people that can do that at speed through the entire match.

 

 

it seems like you should be right, and you probably are, but it wasn’t that long ago, that BJ recorded the fastest time in history with his carry optics gun. perhaps at the world speed shoot it would make sense to shoot a real open gun but I am just going to shoot my LO gun in open if I do any steel major matches this year. outside of worlds, there is usually not any serious open competition at the steel matches I have attended.

[shred]

Yeah, BJ is a freak who doesn't miss.  Thus I think the peak times won't be much different CO/LO/Open but a bit further down the comp difference will show up.

 

[zzt]

I'm a B Open shooter in SCSA.  Before I built real Open guns I used a LO gun in Open.  Some of the fastest times I ever shot were with that gun.  I was a lot younger and faster then.  

 

Now I shoot my backup 2011 Open gun for SCSA.  The Open load is 124 JHP @ 155 PF.   I also shoot my  minor regular load through it.  124 plated @ 132 PF.  The Open load is definitely flatter.

Edited December 31, 2023 by zzt