Limited optics half a year later

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

I’m not convinced they all shoot better, but I’ll get it figured out if you loan me a quick $5k.  But hwy, I’m the guy who made Master with a G24.  

i made M with a bone-stock edge, but my wife and I both made a noticeable improvement in match results when we got better limited guns with heavier grips, lighter triggers, lighter slide and more accuracy.

 

But even without measurable performance improvement, people will still buy expensive guns because most people find them more pleasurable to own, handle, shoot and work on.

Edited December 19, 2023 by motosapiens

[deerslayer]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i made M with a bone-stock edge, but my wife and I both made a noticeable improvement in match results when we got better limited guns with heavier grips, lighter triggers, lighter slide and more accuracy.

I shot better with a $1500 CZ than I did with my STI or the 24. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by deerslayer

[RJH]

27 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

I shot better with a $1500 CZ than I did with my STI or the 24. 

 

 

IMO  one of the biggest pluses of limited optics is it allow shooters to pick the gun they like best to shoot instead of being restrained by an arbitrary action type. 

 

I do believe that most people prefer shooting 2011s, but if you like a Glock or a CZ better, no reason you shouldn't be able to shoot that right alongside the 2011's. In fact that kind of harkens back to the old days of USPSA. 

[LDRIDER]

In my humble opinion its all about the optic. The addition of the optic (LO)

is what allowed me to continue shooting my beloved 2011. eyesight had all

but taken me out of Limited. With the an SRO on my trusty Edge its damn

fun to shoot again. That said , doent it make sense to shape Production and

Carry Optics into more of a Production and Production Optic. Production

rules with or without an optic.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I do believe that most people prefer shooting 2011s, but if you like a Glock or a CZ better, no reason you shouldn't be able to shoot that right alongside the 2011's. In fact that kind of harkens back to the old days of USPSA. 

yep, no reason you can’t choose an inferior racing platform.  ‘murica!

Edited December 20, 2023 by motosapiens

[deerslayer]

35 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

yep, no reason you can’t choose an inferior racing platform.  ‘murica!

If you shoot it better, is it really inferior?

[MHicks]

No. But it takes some time shooting a different type of gun to really give it enough of a chance to determine which gun you actually shoot better with. You can't give a different gun a fair chance shooting a couple of mags through it.

[deerslayer]

10 hours ago, MHicks said:

No. But it takes some time shooting a different type of gun to really give it enough of a chance to determine which gun you actually shoot better with. You can't give a different gun a fair chance shooting a couple of mags through it.

It took about 100 rounds for me to decide I liked my CZ better than my allegedly superior Brazos-tuned 2011 that I had shot for years.  Just because something is more expensive does not mean it’s better.  

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

It took about 100 rounds for me to decide I liked my CZ better than my allegedly superior Brazos-tuned 2011 that I had shot for years.  Just because something is more expensive does not mean it’s better.  

 

Is your CZ an Sao gun? A guy that I used to shoot with had a CZ he used in limited that was an Sao gun and it seemed to work pretty good. The ones I have messed with all seem to have really nice triggers out of the box, I can't remember what the name of those guns were but I can't imagine they would be holding anybody back

[deerslayer]

13 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Is your CZ an Sao gun? A guy that I used to shoot with had a CZ he used in limited that was an Sao gun and it seemed to work pretty good. The ones I have messed with all seem to have really nice triggers out of the box, I can't remember what the name of those guns were but I can't imagine they would be holding anybody back

Yes, a TS2. 

[Racinready300ex]

15 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i made M with a bone-stock edge, but my wife and I both made a noticeable improvement in match results when we got better limited guns with heavier grips, lighter triggers, lighter slide and more accuracy.

 

But even without measurable performance improvement, people will still buy expensive guns because most people find them more pleasurable to own, handle, shoot and work on.

 

That makes sense, I'm sure shooting a 40 adding 10 oz to the gun made it feel better and easier to shoot. I'm not really convinced that a 50+ oz 9mm is going to be better then a lighter plastic gripped 2011. But, you can easily take a prodigy and add a weighted flashlight and get it close to 50 oz. A Brass magwell on top of that could get you to 60 I'd bet. If that's your cup of tea. My 2011's for LO are low to mid 40's. But, I'm weird I shot plastic grips in Limited too. I made GM on a 4" home built 2011 with a plastic grip built for IDPA CCP. 

 

But, in the end you're right people will spend the money. 

[shred]

It does not matter what you can win with.  It matters what outsiders think you need to win.

 

 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

That makes sense, I'm sure shooting a 40 adding 10 oz to the gun made it feel better and easier to shoot. I'm not really convinced that a 50+ oz 9mm is going to be better then a lighter plastic gripped 2011. But, you can easily take a prodigy and add a weighted flashlight and get it close to 50 oz.

 

Your first sentence is a very valid point. As to your second sentence, I had the opportunity to compare my plastic gripped 9mm 2011 (38 oz) with my 50+ oz 40 minor steel-gripped 2011 the last couple weeks. I don't think the heavy gun really needs that much weight, but I don't think it hurts much either, whereas the plastic gun definitely bounces more and is slower on steel and longer shots just because of the extra dot movement.

 

It would be interesting to add 4-6 oz to the plastic gun and see if that made it perfect.... but the heavy gun feels perfect enough to me that I'm just going to sell the plastic one. Of course I have shot a LOT of rounds through the heavy gun, so it feels far more familiar and comfortable to me coming back to it after 6 months than a new gun with 1-2k through it. Individual tastes may vary.

 

I'm sure just like the old days in limited we'll see folks buying inexpensive guns to get started in the sport for a year or two, but just like the old days in limited, the vast majority of serious shooters will be using high-end high-dollar equipment.

Edited December 20, 2023 by motosapiens

[Racinready300ex]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Your first sentence is a very valid point. As to your second sentence, I had the opportunity to compare my plastic gripped 9mm 2011 (38 oz) with my 50+ oz 40 minor steel-gripped 2011 the last couple weeks. I don't think the heavy gun really needs that much weight, but I don't think it hurts much either, whereas the plastic gun definitely bounces more and is slower on steel and longer shots just because of the extra dot movement.

 

It would be interesting to add 4-6 oz to the plastic gun and see if that made it perfect.... but the heavy gun feels perfect enough to me that I'm just going to sell the plastic one. Of course I have shot a LOT of rounds through the heavy gun, so it feels far more familiar and comfortable to me coming back to it after 6 months than a new gun with 1-2k through it. Individual tastes may vary.

 

I'm sure just like the old days in limited we'll see folks buying inexpensive guns to get started in the sport for a year or two, but just like the old days in limited, the vast majority of serious shooters will be using high-end high-dollar equipment.

 

Yeah, I don't think I'd say heavy really hurts much more than the wallet and maybe my back walking around with it all day. You get used to it and can swing it around no problem IMO. 

 

I did similar testing a couple months back with two vary similarly setup guns. Shooting doubles at 15, 50 rounds each. But my light gun weights in the low 40's which is pretty close to that extra 4-6 oz you mentioned. When I was done I had slightly better results with the lighter gun but it was so close I'm not sure it really mattered or if I did it again the results couldn't flip. 

 

My takeaway was it's so similar save my money and my back ache and skip going past about 43-45 oz for a LO gun. But knowing me I'll revisit this in another year thinking maybe that's the edge I need. But, it's not. lol. 

[shred]

I've fooled with everything from a short light Prodigy to a stock 9mm Edge, to throwing a stainless grip on either.

 

Heavier is sure plusher to shoot but more work to transition crisply.  Ultimate speed there's not much difference once you get used to one or the other.

[zzt]

Many moons ago I stated I thought the CZ TS was a better Limited gun than the 2011.  I still think so.  Your hand is higher on the gun and the bore is centerline is lower.  That results in less muzzle rise and a quicker return of sights.

 

Long ago I decided to stick with 1911/2011 platforms.  I knew how to build them, and everything was consistent.  Even my 22 conversions are on 1911 and 2011 platforms.  I still have the TS with an SRO on it.  I'm going to dabble in LO with it in the Spring.

[shred]

The TS is eminently shootable in LO if you get mags that work.  I fooled with one briefly before deciding commonality with 2011s was where it was at for me.  

[Darqusoull13]

21 hours ago, shred said:

The biggest danger for LO is turning into another $5K+ custom gun division.

 

Yeah, Nils could win it with a stock Canik, but he won Limited with one too.

 

It is not as popular as CO, around here but getting close.

Is the "popularity" of LO at your club similar to Nationals popularity of LO where a bunch of CO guys slapped magwells on CO guns? 

I'm not seeing any of the bougie 2011's locally but we've never really seen those to begin with. I do agree with the point though. My initial hope was the perception of requiring an expensive gun to compete would stop the division before it started. 

[shred]

 

5 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Is the "popularity" of LO at your club similar to Nationals popularity of LO where a bunch of CO guys slapped magwells on CO guns? 

I'm not seeing any of the bougie 2011's locally but we've never really seen those to begin with. I do agree with the point though. My initial hope was the perception of requiring an expensive gun to compete would stop the division before it started. 

 

With Stacatto not far down the road, we see a fair number of those.  It seems they are encouraging employees to shoot matches (which is a good thing) and there are others with them too.  Also a few Prodigys and my home-made dovetail-scope-mount Edge that the bougie guns would like to go away.

 

Most of the full custom builder wait times are long enough that there are only a few of those as yet, but they are coming.

 

 

[Bigzona]

17 minutes ago, shred said:

 

 

 

 

Most of the full custom builder wait times are long enough that there are only a few of those as yet, but they are coming.

 

 

 

Very accurate. A non-scientific way to validate this is to take a look at their social media platforms for outgoing builds. The vast majority of the output I see from Rafferty, Carne, Infinity and others are LO guns.

[motosapiens]

56 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Is the "popularity" of LO at your club similar to Nationals popularity of LO where a bunch of CO guys slapped magwells on CO guns? 

I'm not seeing any of the bougie 2011's locally but we've never really seen those to begin with. I do agree with the point though. My initial hope was the perception of requiring an expensive gun to compete would stop the division before it started. 

 

locally i've seen a number of staccatos (some of them are shooting open because of the dorky comp, lol), and a couple vudoos, a dan wesson 2011, plus my 40 minor converted limited gat.  Also at least 1 guy shooting a tanfo. I haven't squadded with him so I don't know if he's running starting in SA, but he probably has a magwell.

 

With LO being new, I'm not surprised that alot people weren't shooting dedicated LO gun at nationals. I suspect many more will be shooting dedicated LO guns in 2024.

[billthemarine2862]

I took a break from USPSA and steel challenge for the last few years.  Just had too much going on in my personal life.  The limited optics division is honestly the reason I am dusting off the shooting belt and starting to dry fire again.  All of my favorite pistols are SAO or striker fire that have magwells that I don't care to remove.  

 

 

I am not going to run out and buy anything new as I would be equally bad with it as what I have now but, I am sure the moment the new division started the arms race by custom manufacturers to capture the market began.

 

FWIW I am shooting a p226 X5 with a Romeo 1 pro when I get to a match next month...I just like it better than my CZ's or Tanfo's for whatever reason. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by billthemarine2862

[Darqusoull13]

2 hours ago, shred said:

 

 

With Stacatto not far down the road, we see a fair number of those.  It seems they are encouraging employees to shoot matches (which is a good thing) and there are others with them too.  Also a few Prodigys and my home-made dovetail-scope-mount Edge that the bougie guns would like to go away.

 

Most of the full custom builder wait times are long enough that there are only a few of those as yet, but they are coming.

 

 

Fair on the build times being a limit. 

I agree on the employee participation as well. Stacatto seems to be getting back to being very involved between the new range hosting events and local matches as well as what you mentioned about encouraging participation. 

[BadShot]

It's beginning to catch on around here.  At our indoor matches, which have a lot of newer shooter, LO and CO are about even.  For me(at 72 years old), I can now shoot my single stack with a dot and not have to shoot against open shooters.  If I have a good match, I finish in the middle of the pack.  I'm really enjoying it.

[whan]

Have mentioned before in other threads, but for our club seeing a lot of open shooters moving to LO at least part time. CO still larger, and has some of the top shooters, most of whom are planning to stay in CO. I'm probably the only one that's in the top 10% CO of our club planning to moving to LO at the moment