Locap thoughts and questions

[RJH]

I like some single stack, but hate that no one else shoots it. In fact  the last 2 matches I was at with about 75 shooters total only 5 shot any locap at all and 3 were shooting revolver for "fun" lol.

 

So the question is, is there a way to get people to shoot locap, and still keep it locap?  

 

I thought combining sounded good for a while, but hell, there ain't nothing to combine lol. 

 

Another way to to ask is, is there anything that would get you to shoot locap? 

 

And by locap I mean 10 rounds, or 10 minor 8 major

[llamasabound]

I really enjoyed production when I shot it and there was a deep and wide talent pool. I set up a new single stack rig this year, with a commitment to shoot 1-2 majors in single stack. 
 

But generally, nothing can get me (or people like me) to shoot low cap. I have limited match availability. Maybe 7-8 locals a year if I’m lucky. Every major but two involves significant travel. Hard to commit to that to dabble in a low population low competition division.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

I like some single stack, but hate that no one else shoots it. In fact  the last 2 matches I was at with about 75 shooters total only 5 shot any locap at all and 3 were shooting revolver for "fun" lol.

 

So the question is, is there a way to get people to shoot locap, and still keep it locap?  

 

I thought combining sounded good for a while, but hell, there ain't nothing to combine lol. 

 

Another way to to ask is, is there anything that would get you to shoot locap? 

 

And by locap I mean 10 rounds, or 10 minor 8 major

 

Locap = 15 rounds

 

We have extra low cap in the US and nobody wants it any more.

 

[JoeMKY]

Have gun will shoot it.  I might not shoot low cap a lot but if there is a big match coming up and I would like to shoot it I will.  There is a low cap match this April and I’m going to and had to break out the 1911 after shooting open , limited and carry optics the last few years.

[dapribek]

I’m in NYS, everything is lo-cap!

[Joe4d]

Low cap at USPSA is like being a 1 legged man at an ass kicking contest. Think I tried it once.. 

[MHicks]

My favorite division is Single Stack. I've shot Limited and now have finally got around to setting up for CO or LO.  I wish there was more  SS participation but don't really see that happening. At nearby L2 matches there are usually 10 to 15, or at least there has been in the past. I've  gone to the Western States Single Stack match 4-5 times and had a great time.

[AKJD]

If there was a lo-cap division with optic I would shoot it.  I always enjoyed the challenge of production and single stack but now I'm old and can't see so I need an optic to remain com

[dapribek]

All of us who shoot CO in NYS use 10 round mags. Lots of fun and gives us old guys an opportunity to still be competitive. 

[zzt]

I don't get this Lo Cap = 15 rounds nonsense.  That's daft.  15 rounds does you no good.  Even with 15+1 you have no extras when shooting two views.  Since OEM mags hold 17, go with load to capacity.  Then with 18 to start you have two makeup rounds.

 

OP, there is nothing you can do to increase SS participation, short of paying people to shoot it.  The way things are going, all the participation will be in optics divisions.  When my eyes said no more Limited, I switched to Open.  CO wasn't a thing back then.  When they changed the CO rules to be essentially Open minor, almost all of the Prod shooters in my area switched.  Most of the Limited shooters also switched.  I don't see anyone going back to irons.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

8 minutes ago, zzt said:

I don't get this Lo Cap = 15 rounds nonsense. 

 

Try IPSC.

 

Maybe that's where it comes from.

[waktasz]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

I don't get this Lo Cap = 15 rounds nonsense.  That's daft.  15 rounds does you no good.  Even with 15+1 you have no extras when shooting two views.  Since OEM mags hold 17, go with load to capacity.  Then with 18 to start you have two makeup rounds.

 

OP, there is nothing you can do to increase SS participation, short of paying people to shoot it.  The way things are going, all the participation will be in optics divisions.  When my eyes said no more Limited, I switched to Open.  CO wasn't a thing back then.  When they changed the CO rules to be essentially Open minor, almost all of the Prod shooters in my area switched.  Most of the Limited shooters also switched.  I don't see anyone going back to irons.

 

Time to break out the XDms and CZ p10's that hold 19 rounds

[Zachjet]

I moved to production this year from CO.. in shooting 4 majors this year and think I’m gunna stick with production  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

Since OEM mags hold 17, go with load to capacity.  Then with 18 to start you have two makeup rounds.

 

Serious question, when was the last time you bought a full size service pistol?

 

CZ P-10F: 19 rounds

CZ P-09: 19 rounds

CZ SP-01: 18 rounds

CZ SP-01 Phantom: 18 rounds

Walther PDP Full Size: 18 rounds

Beretta M9A3 and A4: 18 rounds

 

And probably a few more I don't know about

 

My Shadow 2 as it came from CZ: three 19 round magazines

 

IPSC already tried the "fill up the OEM mags" in Production a long time ago and found out how easily it got gamed to make all but a few pistols non-competitive.  Those who don't know history are bound to repeat the same mistakes.  Or said another way, wise men learn from others' mistakes, fools have to learn them over and over.

 

That's where the 15 round limit came from.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[perttime]

IPSC has "15 rounds in magazines at start signal", for Production Division.

 

I quite enjoy IPSC Classic (similar to USPSA Single Stack). Then I'm competing against other Classic shooters - - - and happy when there's people from higher cap divisions behind me in Combined results.

[happygunner77]

Love low cap. SS option is only 1911. Production 10 is any production gun of your choice. Glad the Prod 10 change is on hold. As I doubt if it changes to 15, people who advocate for it won't shoot it as it still requires lots of mag changes. They need to stay in CO. 

[happygunner77]

19 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

Time to break out the XDms and CZ p10's that hold 19 rounds

 

Exactly. 

[zzt]

19 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

Serious question, when was the last time you bought a full size service pistol?

 

Never.  I did win a 4" XD with 17 round mag capacity.  The point was a 15 round max is stupid.  It does no good for a typical USPSA match.  I don't care what IPSC does, or what they learned.  We are not bound by their rules.  We have a 10-round limit in Prod.  They allow 15 in their equivalent division.

 

If there are 18 and 19-round OEM mags out there, fine. If you want to change from 10 it should be load to capacity.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 If you want to change from 10 it should be load to capacity.

 

C class dude that's never shot locap.  Opinion noted and ignored.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[motosapiens]

I shot SS yesterday (hi iron sights in the match for the 2nd straight week, but that's not saying much, lol). 

 

It's pretty clear that people don't want to focus on lo-cap divisions anymore, and I understand that because i started improving faster when I began shooting hi-cap divisions. However I still think you can talk people into shooting SS and other lo-cap divisions (maybe even revolver, but not me, lol) for special occasions.

 

IMHO the best path forward is to put on 1 or 2 lo-cap only matches every year. Here in Idaho we have the Hawktech 1911 match (outlaw match, big stages, 1911's only, 8 rounds only) in a few weeks, so you often see a few more people shooting USPSA with their SS rigs in the month before the match. All the more fun because we have a pcc match the following day with the same stages, which is the only time I ever shoot pcc.

 

Another good option that we have had success with in the past is a hi-cap/lo-cap weekend where we build 8 stages on friday, then shoot a lo-cap match on saturday, and a separate hi-cap match on Sunday. I retire at the end of this year, so I hope to MD at least 1 locap-only match every year after that.

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I shot SS yesterday (hi iron sights in the match for the 2nd straight week, but that's not saying much, lol). 

 

It's pretty clear that people don't want to focus on lo-cap divisions anymore, and I understand that because i started improving faster when I began shooting hi-cap divisions. However I still think you can talk people into shooting SS and other lo-cap divisions (maybe even revolver, but not me, lol) for special occasions.

 

IMHO the best path forward is to put on 1 or 2 lo-cap only matches every year. Here in Idaho we have the Hawktech 1911 match (outlaw match, big stages, 1911's only, 8 rounds only) in a few weeks, so you often see a few more people shooting USPSA with their SS rigs in the month before the match. All the more fun because we have a pcc match the following day with the same stages, which is the only time I ever shoot pcc.

 

Another good option that we have had success with in the past is a hi-cap/lo-cap weekend where we build 8 stages on friday, then shoot a lo-cap match on saturday, and a separate hi-cap match on Sunday. I retire at the end of this year, so I hope to MD at least 1 locap-only match every year after that.

 

I think something like this might be about the only thing to do. I've been thinking of personally fronting a major award like a six pack of beer for top low cap shooter at a local match. Maybe that'll be a step in the right direction LOL. 

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

18 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

IMHO the best path forward is to put on 1 or 2 lo-cap only matches every year. Here in Idaho we have the Hawktech 1911 match (outlaw match, big stages, 1911's only, 8 rounds only) in a few weeks, so you often see a few more people shooting USPSA with their SS rigs in the month before the match.

 

Maybe that will work in sparsely populated states with few options. 

 

The same thing was tried in Michigan starting in 2021 (The Mitten Match) and it didn't make it to 2023.  And that's even with the 2022 edition having locap on day 1 and hicap on day 2.  Before you think it died because the match sucked, it didn't.  I shot it in 2021 and it was a really fun match with killer stages.  The guys at Brooklyn Sportsmans Club know how to put on a good match.  Many MI Sectionals have been there as well as this year's Area 5.

 

The guys who run USPSA at Bluegrass Sportsmens League in KY are going to try the same thing this year.  I hope it lasts longer but I'm not betting on it.

 

Truth be told, if CO was 10 or 15 rounds I'd shoot it.  But since there's no optics locap in the States any more, I won't be shooting locap.

[Thomas H]

18 hours ago, zzt said:

 

Never.  I did win a 4" XD with 17 round mag capacity.  The point was a 15 round max is stupid.  It does no good for a typical USPSA match.  I don't care what IPSC does, or what they learned.  We are not bound by their rules.  We have a 10-round limit in Prod.  They allow 15 in their equivalent division.

 

If there are 18 and 19-round OEM mags out there, fine. If you want to change from 10 it should be load to capacity.

 

Response to the part in bold:

People who shoot Production know perfectly well that a 15-round mag would make a huge difference---because most importantly, it gives you more choices as to where you are going to reload.  There are tons of stages where the first two arrays require a total of 12-14 shots, or the first three arrays are all 6 shots each, or something similar.  15-round mags cut down your reloads slightly, but more importantly, give you a lot larger set of possibilities in terms of stage plans.

 

Response to the part in italics:

Some of us prefer to learn from the mistakes of others.  IPSC found out quickly that going with the "load to capacity" rule was an extremely bad idea, for reasons which would happen in the same fashion to us.  NOT making that mistake should be extremely straightforward.

 

I personally am fine with staying at 10 rounds, and I enjoy shooting Production.  That being said, if we move to 15 rounds in the mag, it'll still be just as fun shooting Production, and if it gets more people to shoot it, that would be excellent.

 

Yes, currently I am shooting CO.  But I periodically run a local in Production because it is fun.

 

 

 

 

[zzt]

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

There are tons of stages where the first two arrays require a total of 12-14 shots, or the first three arrays are all 6 shots each, or something similar. 

 

Maybe where you shoot.  Not near me.  15+1 would be a definite handicap.  You cannot push as fast because you have no make up shots.  Sure, you could reload going to the second array.  What does 15 in a mag buy you then?  Nothing.  How about a hoser stage with 16 shots without having to move an inch, some on steel?  Sure, they put out a second shooting box to make it legal.  With 10 in a mag you are doing a standing reload.  With 15+1 you go slower because you don't want to have to do a standing reload.

 

17+1 or higher definitely gives you an advantage.  Fewer reloads and more options.  I shot SS major for years in Outlaw matches, all of which were designed by hicap shooters.  I'm well aware of the disadvantages of locap.  That is exactly why I started in Limited when I joined USPSA.  Generally one mag change and tons of options on where to reload.

 

Why do you think CO exploded in popularity when mag capacity was increased?  More mag capacity.  That's why so many Prod shooter moved over.  Now we are lucky to have 4 or 5 Prod shooters in an 80 shooter match.

[teros135]

15+1 is Locap now?  Wow!