Locap thoughts and questions

[BadShot]

I think my biggest concern is not how to increase participation, but how to prevent those that want to eliminate the low caps altogether for whatever reason from succeeding.  The low caps will probably be niche divisions from now on.  If you look at the single stack events around the country, they draw reasonable crowds.

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, zzt said:

It is quite easy to develop fun locap stages.  I have to do it every match at my home club.  They have a whacky rule that says no running with a loaded gun.  There was an incident years ago where someone tripped and fell.  No AD, safety was on before he hit the ground.  Board said, what if.   So to run, you have to lock the slide back and drop the mag.  We have a ten round limit in mags.

 

You shoot the first view, make up if necessary, or dump the remaining two rounds on a target.  Slide lock, drop mag, run to next view, reload, engage.  Repeat.  Repeat.  There is no particular trick to designing challenging locap stages.  It just isn't done often, at least in my area.

i would not shoot at that club if you paid me. I might run for the board tho and change the rules.

[zzt]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

shooting is just plain easier with hi-cap and a dot, and for some people that makes it more fun.

 

Yep.  No dot, no shooting for me.  I just cannot see iron sights.

[zzt]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

i would not shoot at that club if you paid me. I might run for the board tho and change the rules.

 

It has been tried many times.  I tried again this year.  No dice.  Eight of us are USPSA shooters.  It's a little boring.  The rest are quite happy to shoot the matches with those restrictions.  It's either that, or no action matches.

[whan]

14 minutes ago, BadShot said:

I think my biggest concern is not how to increase participation, but how to prevent those that want to eliminate the low caps altogether for whatever reason from succeeding.  The low caps will probably be niche divisions from now on.  If you look at the single stack events around the country, they draw reasonable crowds.

 

I don't think Locap will ever fully go away because of mag ban states. Regardless of what division most people are actually shooting in those states, there is a need for a locap division for new shooters to have somewhere to start, and for the optics of it as well

 

The main question is if we should do anything to consolidate those divisions given dwindling participation. My experience having shot SS up until recently is yes - because there wasn't much heat in SS (even at my club that regularly gets 150 person matches), I would always just use practiscore competitor to combine with Prod and L10 (+ Revo lol) and evaluate my performance using that

 

Only downside to combining all locap would be what would happen to stuff like western states single stack, but honestly I wouldn't mind them just being turned into a broader locap only match. As I mentioned before I really did enjoy Gridiron 2021 which was that, and that match had good turnout.

 

My take is most people want to shoot hicap as their primary division, but many would be interested in shooting an occasional locap only match, if only just to provide something fun and challenging in a different way vs. their normal division. 

[Fishbreath]

3 hours ago, BadShot said:

I think my biggest concern is not how to increase participation, but how to prevent those that want to eliminate the low caps altogether for whatever reason from succeeding.  The low caps will probably be niche divisions from now on. 

 

I agree. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

A lot of the conversation around locap divisions seems to be how to convince people who mostly shoot hicap to occasionally shoot locap. Will rules changes really bring them into locap divisions permanently, or even make their locap participation more frequent? Probably not. I tell everyone who shows the slightest interest in revolver that I'll spot them a belt, a gun, and ammo if they want to try it out for a match. I might get my first bite on that offer this year, four years into shooting the division.

 

There are ideas that make sense to me, like Production 15 or Locap 8maj/10min (not for participation reasons, just because they're tidy from a rules standpoint), but since I don't shoot Production/L10/SS regularly, and probably wouldn't even if they made those changes, I won't presume to tell people who still stick with those divisions what, if anything, ought to be done with them.

[ddc]

5 hours ago, zzt said:

It is quite easy to develop fun locap stages.  I have to do it every match at my home club.  They have a whacky rule that says no running with a loaded gun.  There was an incident years ago where someone tripped and fell.  No AD, safety was on before he hit the ground.  Board said, what if.   So to run, you have to lock the slide back and drop the mag.  We have a ten round limit in mags.

 

You shoot the first view, make up if necessary, or dump the remaining two rounds on a target.  Slide lock, drop mag, run to next view, reload, engage.  Repeat.  Repeat.  There is no particular trick to designing challenging locap stages.  It just isn't done often, at least in my area.

 

So not a USPSA match... right? Just some local outlaw/IDPA'ish type thing?

[RJH]

Saw a post on Facebook earlier about the bluegrass classic, which is apparently a major low cap match. The post mentions that they've had several people drop out in the match can barely break even at this point and they are hoping for more competitors. Looks like it's another sign that there may be no saving low cap for the few of us that still enjoy shooting it. I thought about signing up but it's over a thousand miles away and that's a little bit over my limit on travel LOL. 

 

I'm beginning to think there may be no hope for any low cap divisions. 

[perttime]

13 hours ago, whan said:

...

As a whole, I would say it would make sense to bump production to 15 rounds, keep LO as its current provisional ruleset, make CO more like IPSC Production Options Light (weight limit, 15 rounds), and then just roll all locap into Limited 10, with 10 round minor/8 round major.

...

 

Just a FYI, not that it matters: IPSC Production Optics Light is no more. Or ceases to exist as soon as IPSC publishes the latest version of the Rules.

[MHicks]

The Gridiron match that was mentioned has been around since at least 2015. It's been  a locap SS vs Production match until last year. I don't know if it was mainly because of shooter feedback or just to make it a bigger match but it changed last year. Now they've opened it up to other divisions. But they have competition between divisions that they think compete against each other well. SS vs Production/ Open vs PCC/ Limited vs CO. You can also sign up as teams if you want. A little different but still fun.

[zzt]

9 hours ago, ddc said:

 

So not a USPSA match... right? Just some local outlaw/IDPA'ish type thing?

 

Outlaw, but USPSAish, not IDPAish.  Our affiliations are NRA and CMP.

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, RJH said:

Saw a post on Facebook earlier about the bluegrass classic, which is apparently a major low cap match. The post mentions that they've had several people drop out in the match can barely break even at this point and they are hoping for more competitors. Looks like it's another sign that there may be no saving low cap for the few of us that still enjoy shooting it. I thought about signing up but it's over a thousand miles away and that's a little bit over my limit on travel LOL. 

 

I'm beginning to think there may be no hope for any low cap divisions. 

i saw that post as well. sounds like a fun match, but they may also have overestimated a little bit by spending the $$ for staff reset. Our local 1911 match that same weekend is less ambitious financially. No one is going to lose money on it even if only a handful show up. 56 entrants so far.

[JoeMKY]

15 hours ago, RJH said:

Saw a post on Facebook earlier about the bluegrass classic, which is apparently a major low cap match. The post mentions that they've had several people drop out in the match can barely break even at this point and they are hoping for more competitors. Looks like it's another sign that there may be no saving low cap for the few of us that still enjoy shooting it. I thought about signing up but it's over a thousand miles away and that's a little bit over my limit on travel LOL. 

 

I'm beginning to think there may be no hope for any low cap divisions. 

 

Yeah I'm attending this match to dust off the 1911.  Big Change from going from CO and Open the last few years, but should be a lot of fun!

[MikeBurgess]

the problem with lo-cap divisions is people "Believe" they are hard, what they don't understand is that all divisions are hard. the more performance your equipment allows the faster you have to do everything to have a hope of doing well.

 

Now if people are thinking about classification then Revo is by far the easiest division to move up in, ask me how I know 

 

[zzt]

30 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

the problem with lo-cap divisions is people "Believe" they are hard,

 

The complaints I hear are too many mag changes.  I had to send my 2011 Open gun back for a warranty frame replacement.  So for the next two matches I used the 1911 Open gun I built for SCSA.  Six 10-round mags.  I don't think I lost a second because of the extra reloads.  I left wondering what all the fuss was.  I do get it though.  Stage planning for three mag changes is definitely harder than for one or none.

[whan]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

the problem with lo-cap divisions is people "Believe" they are hard, what they don't understand is that all divisions are hard. the more performance your equipment allows the faster you have to do everything to have a hope of doing well.

 

Now if people are thinking about classification then Revo is by far the easiest division to move up in, ask me how I know 

 

 

Yes, that's true but it's also based on a viewpoint of someone who likely is experienced and aiming to place in the top of their division. 

 

The key issue is that for most shooters at the local level, who usually are between low C to low B class, they aren't really aiming to win their division. They probably would be happy if they can get through a local match with minimal M or NS, and not FTSA or have otherwise disastrous stage execution. For them, lo-cap makes it objectively hard to have a reasonably clean match, because it's a lot more unforgiving of mistakes, whether with reloads, stage planning, makeups, etc.

[GigG]

23 hours ago, zzt said:

I have to do it every match at my home club.  They have a whacky rule that says no running with a loaded gun. 

 

Why are they even allowed to be a USPSA club?

[MHicks]

4 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

Why are they even allowed to be a USPSA club?

 

I suppose if no one ever complained to USPSA headquarters how would they know? But we don't know if they're actually affiliated or not. They shouldn't be.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

17 hours ago, RJH said:

Saw a post on Facebook earlier about the bluegrass classic, which is apparently a major low cap match. The post mentions that they've had several people drop out in the match can barely break even at this point and they are hoping for more competitors.

 

That match is semi local (3 hrs) for me.  It's sort of a resurrection of the Battle In The Bluegrass which was a pretty heavily attended Production/Single Stack match at that club.  The BiTBG lasted ten years with 2019 the last match I can find records of.

 

https://practiscore.com/results/new/78817

 

Someone else mentioned the entry fee/staff reset of the new Bluegrass LoCap Classic.  I seriously doubt attendance would have been any better if the fee was 120 - 140 bucks.

[zzt]

11 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

Why are they even allowed to be a USPSA club?

 

We are not a USPSA affiliated club, as I mentioned above.  These are outlaw USPSA 'style' matches.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 4/3/2023 at 12:38 PM, whan said:

 make CO more like IPSC Production Options Light

 

I somehow missed that part.  That's a hard no.

 

PO Light is dead in IPSC.  Giving CO a similar weight limit would kill it here too.  Lots of CO shooters with pistols straight off the Production list don't want to end up in LO because of a BS weight limit that nobody wants.

 

The CO weight limit should be what's in the production list for a particular pistol plus 3 or 4 ounces to account for the optic and any plate/adapter.  Why wasn't it that way from the beginning, instead of the dumb, arbitrary weight limits it got over the years, I'll never know.

[whan]

22 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I somehow missed that part.  That's a hard no.

 

PO Light is dead in IPSC.  Giving CO a similar weight limit would kill it here too.  Lots of CO shooters with pistols straight off the Production list don't want to end up in LO because of a BS weight limit that nobody wants.

 

The CO weight limit should be what's in the production list for a particular pistol plus 3 or 4 ounces to account for the optic and any plate/adapter.  Why wasn't it that way from the beginning, instead of the dumb, arbitrary weight limits it got over the years, I'll never know.

 

I guess getting a bit off topic, but I'd argue that LO's provisional ruleset is so similar to CO as it currently stands (pretty much just allowing SA and Magwells) that they're kind of redundant. Stuff like the Shadow 2 with a thumb rest and brass grips really starts to push into specialized race guns anyways and I wouldn't feel at a huge disadvantage shooting my Tanfo in LO as is

 

I think it would be interesting making "CO" a division that actually uses guns you'd carry by requiring it to fit in a box with an optic cutout and a 38oz weight limit. May make it also a great place for newer shooters to start out and not worry about gear at all. Something like a G17 with an optic would be perfectly competitive over the long term

 

IIRC the explosion in CO participation started after they changed the weight limit, but more important after they went from 10 rounds to 140mm in 2017. I'd argue the capacity change was the bigger reason for the growth over the weight limit change.

 

That said, I do acknowledge PO light died in IPSC, but my argument would be that it was too similar to regular PO. Same rules essentially just with a weight limit. LO with 140mm mags and "CO" with 15 rounds would be a sufficient enough difference that I could see participation in both

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by whan

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, whan said:

I think it would be interesting making "CO" a division that actually uses guns you'd carry by requiring it to fit in a box with an optic cutout and a 38oz weight limit.

 

It's been tried before.  As soon as Stock IIs and Shadow 2s made the production list they became the go tos and plastic guns became what noobs shot until they went away or got wise.

 

I do agree with the box.  CO guns should fit in a production box with a slot for the optic.

 

Even before Shadow 2s were a thing a slicked up SP-01 was 40 -42 oz out of the box and they were production legal forever.

 

IDPA is the place to shoot "real" carry guns.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[shred]

I shot a ton of Single Stack a few years ago.  Did pretty good at a few majors.  

 

But that was then and this is now at the local level, all the production shooters (and we had a lot) in the club that were designing and setting up stages have either left or switched to CO & Open.  Result is at setup time nobody pays attention anymore so although the stages are decently designed, what hits the ground often needs work to be locap fun.

 

 

 

[lroy]

1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

It's been tried before.  As soon as Stock IIs and Shadow 2s made the production list they became the go tos and plastic guns became what noobs shot until they went away or got wise.

 

I do agree with the box.  CO guns should fit in a production box with a slot for the optic.

 

Even before Shadow 2s were a thing a slicked up SP-01 was 40 -42 oz out of the box and they were production legal forever.

 

IDPA is the place to shoot "real" carry guns.

 

Idpa allows $6000 2011s with comps. Lol