USPSA Survey results in

[Boomstick303]

25 minutes ago, Kwontanamo said:

it's interesting that many want Limited optics but the majority wouldn't switch over from CO. Also surprised to see how evenly split some of these results are. 

 

That is for the ones that voted.  It might be a whole different spit once those who didn't vote stay in CO or move to LO if it does become a provisional.  

[usmc1974]

13 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

That is for the ones that voted.  It might be a whole different spit once those who didn't vote stay in CO or move to LO if it does become a provisional.  

I shoot CO The only thing that might, make me switch to LO would be if it was scored major. That is why I believe there should only be 1 power factor Somewhat in the middle.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

…and what I find truly bizarre is that the rest of the world gets by just fine with the IPSC Equipment rules, as did USA (for the most part) until 2000.

 

The problem is no matter what you shoot it's probably illegal in ipsc. So you need new equipment. That's a pretty big turn off for most people. If they were new and not already invested maybe, but that ship has sailed for most. 

[BritinUSA]

Transitioning to an IPSC rule-set could be done, there are ways to do it over a period of time utilizing PractiScore to separate out IPSC vs USPSA equipment. Competitors could then merge those scores in the Competitor App to see how they did against their IPSC equivalent divisions.

 

These are hurdles, not road-blocks.

 

Nationals would be done under full IPSC rules but as that counts for 5-10% of the shooting population I don't see that as a major issue. 

 

I'd love to see a separate organization, choice/competition is a good thing and could serve to benefit both in the long run.

 

[GigG]

20 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

I shoot CO The only thing that might, make me switch to LO would be if it was scored major. That is why I believe there should only be 1 power factor Somewhat in the middle.

That makes no sense at all.

[usmc1974]

58 minutes ago, GigG said:

That makes no sense at all.

Only to you.

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

I shoot CO The only thing that might, make me switch to LO would be if it was scored major. That is why I believe there should only be 1 power factor Somewhat in the middle.

I shoot CO. The only thing that might make me switch to LO would be if it was scored major. that is why I believe LO should major/minor, and CO should remain minor (and be reduced to 15 rds, and knock the weight limit back down).

 

Having only 1 power factor seems pretty bizarre to me, but in the army we learned to grip our guns....

[Dirty_J]

10 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I shoot CO. The only thing that might make me switch to LO would be if it was scored major. that is why I believe LO should major/minor, and CO should remain minor (and be reduced to 15 rds, and knock the weight limit back down).

 

Having only 1 power factor seems pretty bizarre to me, but in the army we learned to grip our guns....

If it’s got the word “Limited” in it… it should offer major scoring. Just like the parent division.  (even though we know that’s not what most folks will shoot). 

[usmc1974]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 the army we learned to grip our guns....

Did it hurt?

Why not make there 1 power factor? 150 and call it major and be done with it?

Edited February 21, 2023 by usmc1974

[YVK]

22 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

 

Why not make there 1 power factor? 150 and call it major and be done with it?

 

So people who shoot factory 9 mm can pack it and go do IDPA?

[shred]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

The problem is no matter what you shoot it's probably illegal in ipsc. So you need new equipment. That's a pretty big turn off for most people. If they were new and not already invested maybe, but that ship has sailed for most. 

Yeah, back when they diverged, it wouldn't have been difficult to switch back, but these days, not so much.  

 

Basic fundamental problem was US shooters have access to a plethora of parts and like to tinker with and modify their guns while the IPSC High Table thought they could push gun makers to make better guns by mandating only factory parts and are only now starting to come off that stance.

 

 

[Dirty_J]

23 minutes ago, YVK said:

 

So people who shoot factory 9 mm can pack it and go do IDPA?

Yeah. 150 is just silly. If you can’t make PF in a 4.0-4.5” gun with factory ammo… you’ll lose a ton of the crowd. 
 

Not everyone is interested in reloading. 

[Joe4d]

So your crusade for change includes special god awful expensive plus p cop loads ? Most bulk 9mm comes in around 130 pf,,
Hole thing every one is clamoring about is to be able to use readily off the shelf ammo and for the most part off the shelf home modified guns...
A 140 to 150 pf you have been harping on wouldnt make a lick of sense.

[BritinUSA]

17 minutes ago, shred said:

Yeah, back when they diverged, it wouldn't have been difficult to switch back, but these days, not so much.  

 

Basic fundamental problem was US shooters have access to a plethora of parts and like to tinker with and modify their guns....

And those same plethora of parts are available in most countries around the world.
 

The problem with USPSA's vision for the sport is that it has led to the top four divisions (Open, Limited, Production and CO) all allowing significant modifications.

 

We have FOUR custom handgun divisions, and soon to add a FIFTH.

 

Aside from Single-Stack (which has very low participation) we don't have a single stock/out-of-the-box division. 
 

When production was introduced in 2000 (in both IPSC and USPSA) it was for production guns only. USPSA allowed the sights to be replaced and I think later to allow the slide to be milled for this purpose. 
 

Then came the slow erosion of the concept which accelerated under Mike Foley. We've lost any sense of balance between the divisions.

 

In IPSC if your Production/Prod-Optics gun is not ideal then increase your skills to overcome the problem. That's the whole concept of the sport, increasing handgun skills.
 

Having trouble controlling muzzle-flip? Learn to grip more efficiently or change your stance. In USPSA you don't need to do either, just whack a lead weight on the end of the gun with a 12 cent LED on it to accomplish a  similar result.

 

We should learn to master the gun, not a credit card.

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

And those same plethora of parts are available in most countries around the world.
 

The problem with USPSA's vision for the sport is that it has led to the top four divisions (Open, Limited, Production and CO) all allowing significant modifications.

 

We have FOUR custom handgun divisions, and soon to add a FIFTH.

 

Aside from Single-Stack (which has very low participation) we don't have a single stock/out-of-the-box division. 
 

When production was introduced in 2000 (in both IPSC and USPSA) it was for production guns only. USPSA allowed the sights to be replaced and I think later to allow the slide to be milled for this purpose. 
 

Then came the slow erosion of the concept which accelerated under Mike Foley. We've lost any sense of balance between the divisions.

 

In IPSC if your Production/Prod-Optics gun is not ideal then increase your skills to overcome the problem. That's the whole concept of the sport, increasing handgun skills.
 

Having trouble controlling muzzle-flip? Learn to grip more efficiently or change your stance. In USPSA you don't need to do either, just whack a lead weight on the end of the gun with a 12 cent LED on it to accomplish a  similar result.

 

We should learn to master the gun, not a credit card.

 

LOL, in ipsc if you can't control the muzzle you go ahead and buy you a $2,000 accu shadow or a $1,500 stock two or something to that effect. Sticking a light on a gamer Glock 34 is completely out of hand though

 

Yeah, they got it all figured out

Edited February 21, 2023 by RJH

[motosapiens]

14 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

Why not make there 1 power factor? 150 and call it major and be done with it?

what is the point? It introduces several problems.... what problem does it fix? Why make a drastic change to the fundamental character of the sport?

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

 

The problem with USPSA's vision for the sport is that it has led to the top four divisions (Open, Limited, Production and CO) all allowing significant modifications.

 

 

This is a good thing imho. It is clear that people can compete and win in production and CO without spending tons of money, so allowing modifications mostly just lets people customize the gun to fit their personal preferences, hand dimensions and grip. Part of the fun of guns is tinkering with them.

 

It is worth noting that rules allowing silly things like flashlights actually help *reduce* costs. Those things are not an advantage (probably a measurable disadvantage) on a heavy gun like a shadow2 or tanfo, but they allow someone to tweak their existing glock or other practical lightweight gun to be a bit more competitive for them at a low cost.

[Sandbagger123]

the only reason i would like LO/MA is that i can put back to use the 2 limited guns i have for a small price.  no need to rebarrel them to 9mm.   just get them milled and a red dot.   

 

if its LO/Minor  i will just continue to shoot CO.  i don't think LO/M will be as popular as many people think.  investing  $2-3k for a new gun when a $6-800 will do in CO with the same scoring .

Edited February 21, 2023 by Sandbagger123

[konkapot]

"Master the gun not a credit card" should absolutely be a bumper sticker or tshirt or meme or something. 

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, konkapot said:

"Master the gun not a credit card" should absolutely be a bumper sticker or tshirt or meme or something. 

 

Send that to Duda lol

[Racinready300ex]

13 minutes ago, Sandbagger123 said:

the only reason i would like LO/MA is that i can put back to use the 2 limited guns i have for a small price.  no need to rebarrel them to 9mm.   just get them milled and a red dot.   

 

if its LO/Minor  i will just continue to shoot CO.  i don't think LO/M will be as popular as many people think.  investing  $2-3k for a new gun when a $6-800 will do in CO with the same scoring .

 

If you reload you could always load minor. 40 minor is pretty soft and you'll have 21+1 vs 23+1. On most stages that's not going to matter. I can only ever remember reloading twice on a stage in Limited two times. 

 

I guess we have to decide what the goal is. I think it should be to make a place for SAO CO style guns which are mostly  9mm. If the goal is just give the 8% of the sport that shoot limited major another place to shoot 40 it's less interesting IMO. 

[shred]

23 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

 

 

Aside from Single-Stack (which has very low participation) we don't have a single stock/out-of-the-box division. 
 

 

Newsflash: Single stack isn't a stock/out-of-the-box division either.  Even less-so in IPSC.

Horse, barn, gone.

[Joe4d]

19 minutes ago, shred said:

Newsflash: Single stack isn't a stock/out-of-the-box division either.  Even less-so in IPSC.

Horse, barn, gone.

Revolver,,, not much you can do to a 627,, which is pretty much the only gun competitive. 

 

[GrumpyOne]

7 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If you reload you could always load minor. 40 minor is pretty soft and you'll have 21+1 vs 23+1. On most stages that's not going to matter. I can only ever remember reloading twice on a stage in Limited two times. 

 

I guess we have to decide what the goal is. I think it should be to make a place for SAO CO style guns which are mostly  9mm. If the goal is just give the 8% of the sport that shoot limited major another place to shoot 40 it's less interesting IMO. 

I shot 40 minor in Production a few years before switching to 9mm. IMO, 40 minor is softer than 9mm minor. The reason I switched was cost. 

[louu]

I don't understand all the posts about growing the game. Every match around here fills up in minutes except Eastern shore. Every dude I've seen at a match with a 9mm 2011 with a slide mounted red dot is either a 3 gun guy that didn't have a 3 gun match to shoot that day or a guy that can't hit the broad side of a barn. None of them read the rules or even care what the rules say and none of them are uspsa members. They also sign up for CO every time.