NROI question of the month on Virginia Count, stage procedure, and penalties

[IVC]

On 2/13/2023 at 4:34 PM, broadside72 said:

You didn't engage the targets after the reload per the WSB requirements. So you can be penalized under 10.2.2. I would also think that its 6 penalties because of the significant advantage of the time savings and lack of transitions.

 

What would be "each occurrence" in 10.2.2 and at what exact point in time would you asses the penalty? Keep in mind that you cannot define "occurrence" based on the number of shots pre/post reload, because NROI said so. And which 6 penalties would you assess that are NOT based on the incorrect number of shots pre/post reload, which is also something NROI claims you can't do. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

13 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

It's not what you said, it's what I feel you said

Haha so true of many things nowadays. 
 

[waktasz]

12 hours ago, IVC said:

 

What would be "each occurrence" in 10.2.2 and at what exact point in time would you asses the penalty? Keep in mind that you cannot define "occurrence" based on the number of shots pre/post reload, because NROI said so. And which 6 penalties would you assess that are NOT based on the incorrect number of shots pre/post reload, which is also something NROI claims you can't do. 

 

What NROI says doesn't mean anything as they clearly state in their answer.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Good thing they don’t let me make stages. 
It would be a riddle wrapped in a  description.
 

one target stage.
upon start signal 
engage target with only two rounds. 
… best three rounds count. 
let’s see who reads the WSB 

 

[wchangose]

NROI's answer was nonsense.  Only means only, then means then.

[Thomas H]

4 hours ago, wchangose said:

NROI's answer was nonsense.  Only means only, then means then.

 

I'm thinking that the entire problem could have been solved by putting "then" in the written stage briefing, specifically:

 

On the audible start signal, from within the shooting area, engage T1-T3 with only two rounds per target, THEN make a mandatory reload, then engage T1-T3 with only two rounds per target.

 

Given that, it specifies a mandatory reload after 6 rounds.  As such, the situation at argument would then be covered under 10.2.4.

 

Not having the "then" listed in bold means that "engage with only two rounds per target, make a mandatory reload, then engage..." means "engage each target and reload, then engage each target again with the expectation that there will be four hits per target scored."

 

Again---I'm not saying I agree with that interpretation.  (Not at all.)  I'm just saying that given their interpretation, adding that extra "then" would solve the problem.

[ddc]

7 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

I'm thinking that the entire problem could have been solved by putting "then" in the written stage briefing, specifically:

 

On the audible start signal, from within the shooting area, engage T1-T3 with only two rounds per target, THEN make a mandatory reload, then engage T1-T3 with only two rounds per target.

 

Given that, it specifies a mandatory reload after 6 rounds.  As such, the situation at argument would then be covered under 10.2.4.

 

Not having the "then" listed in bold means that "engage with only two rounds per target, make a mandatory reload, then engage..." means "engage each target and reload, then engage each target again with the expectation that there will be four hits per target scored."

 

Again---I'm not saying I agree with that interpretation.  (Not at all.)  I'm just saying that given their interpretation, adding that extra "then" would solve the problem.

 

But isn't their (NROI) argument based upon their stance that failing to follow the procedure can not result in a penalty in this particular scenario?

If so then adding "then" doesn't change that. There is still a procedure that is not being followed and that unfortunately can not be penalized.

[Thomas H]

On 2/15/2023 at 12:27 PM, ddc said:

 

But isn't their (NROI) argument based upon their stance that failing to follow the procedure can not result in a penalty in this particular scenario?

If so then adding "then" doesn't change that. There is still a procedure that is not being followed and that unfortunately can not be penalized.

 

Nope.

 

The "then" at that point would lock in exactly where the reload should happen.  Their argument about 10.2.4 was that it said "engage T1-T3, reload, THEN engage T1-T3 again" which to them meant "you have to engage each target after the reload" and pretty much nothing else.

 

If there is a "THEN reload" part, it specifies that the reload occurs after the first six shots, and then 10.2.4 would apply if the reload did not occur at the correct point in the stage. They wouldn't be penalized for incorrect number of shots, they are being penalized for not performing the mandatory reload at the correct time.

[waktasz]

ep 28 at 9:30 for some discussion on this

https://uspsa.org/podcast/nroi

 

Doubling down on their answer. Obviously the only people that agree with this are the people running the NROI. 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by waktasz

[Paul B]

Just listened to the podcast and the comments I got were that those of us who have been doing this for 20 plus years just need to be re-educated on the rules and WSB's.

 

Like it was said above "only" means "only" and if that isn't enough the first definition of "only" is "and no one or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively".

 

I guess if you think about it long enough the color red does look kind of like blue.

[lroy]

19 hours ago, waktasz said:

ep 28 at 9:30 for some discussion on this

https://uspsa.org/podcast/nroi

 

Doubling down on their answer. Obviously the only people that agree with this are the people running the NROI. 

 

 

save anyone curious 5 mins - the answer is the answer; stop harassing us

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

So if there an “ only” in a WSB that’s the stage maker just screwing with your brain ? 
interesting door to open. 

 

[JWBaldree]

I caught the podcast this afternoon, and while in general I like the podcast and the question of the month, I thought the NROI group missed an opportunity with this topic. Right, wrong or indifferent, those of us that serve as ROs obviously have a lot of confusion with this, despite the answer that was written on the Blog. Perhaps NROI will revisit this in another podcast and can elaborate further on their reasoning. I did appreciate the group discussing how they discuss these QotM topics and answers with the RM and RMI staff, but despite that I'm going to say that 98% of us still aren't grasping the concept that they are trying to convey in this instance.

[Dirty_J]

30 minutes ago, JWBaldree said:

I'm going to say that 98% of us still aren't grasping the concept that they are trying to convey in this instance.

DNROI is part of that 98%…

 

 

[Cuz]

9 hours ago, JWBaldree said:

I caught the podcast this afternoon, and while in general I like the podcast and the question of the month, I thought the NROI group missed an opportunity with this topic. Right, wrong or indifferent, those of us that serve as ROs obviously have a lot of confusion with this, despite the answer that was written on the Blog. Perhaps NROI will revisit this in another podcast and can elaborate further on their reasoning. I did appreciate the group discussing how they discuss these QotM topics and answers with the RM and RMI staff, but despite that I'm going to say that 98% of us still aren't grasping the concept that they are trying to convey in this instance.

if 98% of us can’t grasp the concept, and many of us are shooters and ROs who have been doing this for a while, then maybe there is something wrong with the concept. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

What concept ? 
that words have meanings but also that the meanings can change when another 

action takes place.

maybe they could educate us literal “2%” with defining “only “ 

that’s a good start. 

[JWBaldree]

7 hours ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

What concept ? 

That's my point. Despite the written explanation, 98% aren't getting it. NROI needs to further explain, or at least dumb it down for us. Trust me, I'm fully on board with words meaning things, speaking the King's English, etc. Which is why I'm having a hard time with this QotM answer too.

[tdogg]

On 2/6/2023 at 4:00 PM, Cuz said:

At the very least, I just don't see how you can talk your way out of at least 1 procedural for the extra shot before the required reload:

10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

 

The WSB says it's a mandatory reload after engaging targets with 2 rounds each.  Seems very clear to me.

 

This is it right here! This is the only logical conclusion you can make if following the WSB as an RO.  I'm not going to get into trying to deduce engagement definitions or whatever, I'm focused on safety and shot counting.

 

In the April 2, 2020 Question of the month response from NROI (linked in the response this month), they discussed when you would apply a procedural for failure to perform the reload and described exactly opposite what they discussed this month.  I don't agree with their response this month and hope they also make a correction to clear up the confusion.

 

Feb 2, 2023:

Quote

So the competitor took an extra shot at T3 on the first engagement, probably to make up a miss, before the mandatory reload. As a result, each target was engaged before the mandatory reload was made, and engaged again after the reload. No penalty for failing to make the mandatory reload at the right time.

 

The stage procedure for the April 2, 2020:

Quote

Stage (B) procedure: Engage T1 with only six rounds, then perform a mandatory reload, and then re-engage T1 with only six rounds.

April 2, 2020:

Quote

So when would we penalize for not doing the reload? Let’s say that in Stage B, the competitor fires seven round at T1, performs the reload, and then fires five rounds at T1. There were 12 total shots, so no extra shot penalties can be applied. But, since the reload was done after seven shots versus six, we would apply one procedural per 10.2.4 because the reload was done one shot too late.

 

They contradict themselves in their responses.

 

I emailed Troy and his response was not helpful.

 

Cheers,

Toby

[sc68cal]

Heads up, rule clarifications were just released about 10.2.2 and 10.2.2.1

 

https://uspsa.org/nroi/rulings#

[Dirty_J]

11 minutes ago, sc68cal said:

Heads up, rule clarifications were just released about 10.2.2 and 10.2.2.1

 

https://uspsa.org/nroi/rulings#

Classic. My ruling didn’t fit the rules. So we change the rules.  

[broadside72]

1 hour ago, sc68cal said:

Heads up, rule clarifications were just released about 10.2.2 and 10.2.2.1

 

https://uspsa.org/nroi/rulings#

 

Because that made it so much better..... SMH

Those changes don't address any of this controversy around "only" and "then"

[waktasz]

The new official ruling contradicts their question of the month and further blog clarification and the podcast that came after. 
I can forgive them because at least they got it right now. 

[NMBOpen]

During the chaos and anarchy caused by the QotM, we shot Fixed Time 09-09 Lightning & Thunder.  "String 2, 15y: On the start signal engage each target with only one round each make a mandatory reload and reengage each target with only one round each freestyle."  It got shot as 2-2-1 reload 1 with no penalties applied.

[waktasz]

I hope that guy makes GM by 400% 

[oddjob]

OK.....Just for my own simple mind..... 3-3-3, reload, 1-1-1 is now REALLY good to go correct?