NROI question of the month on Virginia Count, stage procedure, and penalties

[waktasz]

On 2/3/2023 at 6:47 PM, ddc said:

So even though common sense... lol... says that there should be a penalty NROI says their interpretation of the rule book says otherwise.

 

So the next question in my mind is: "Do we just live with this apparent rules corner condition or does the rulebook change such that common sense is satisfied?"

 

It bugs the heck out of me that there can be such an explicit stage procedure and there be no penalty when it is not followed. 

 

These questions of the month can go pound sand. They don't mean anything, especially when Jodi is answering them. 

[IVC]

4 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

These questions of the month can go pound sand. They don't mean anything, especially when Jodi is answering them. 

Shots fired, Lol. Waiting to see how this goes...

[waktasz]

Absolutely no where. If they want these weekly posts to mean anything they can append them to or edit the rulebook. She is pissing people off with this nonsense. I made a post about it on FB and random people are PMing me saying her explanations make no sense. I know she's on here so it will be fun to see her answer, but as far as I can tell no one gives a flying noshoot what she has to say. 

[Joe4d]

Membership needs to stop putting up with reading challenged old men who cant read a plain English rule book, yet seem to have the power to make "rulings"

 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

Absolutely no where. If they want these weekly posts to mean anything they can append them to or edit the rulebook. She is pissing people off with this nonsense. I made a post about it on FB and random people are PMing me saying her explanations make no sense. I know she's on here so it will be fun to see her answer, but as far as I can tell no one gives a flying noshoot what she has to say. 

I care alot about what Jodi has to say. I've worked with her at many many major matches, and she's a good RM and very nice and helpful and constructive person. But I think this ruling is dumb, whoever is responsible for it. It flies in the face of everything we've been doing for years, and everything that the rules obviously mean, and it makes zero sense whatsoever to me. They need to just go back and retroactively give George the penalties he earned, lol.

[shred]

Hey, could be the previous DNROI.  Nice guy but his rulings often made little sense to me.

 

[waktasz]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I care alot about what Jodi has to say. I've worked with her at many many major matches, and she's a good RM and very nice and helpful and constructive person. But I think this ruling is dumb, whoever is responsible for it. It flies in the face of everything we've been doing for years, and everything that the rules obviously mean, and it makes zero sense whatsoever to me. They need to just go back and retroactively give George the penalties he earned, lol.

 

I only know her through these NROI postings and they are such horses#!t it's embarrassing 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

 

I only know her through these NROI postings and they are such horses#!t it's embarrassing 

the one under discussion is the only one that has seemed truly wacked to me, but I may have missed a couple.

The weird thing is I'm pretty sure these don't just come from 1 person without grownup supervision. From my travels and work with several RMI's, I know that they typically discuss these things as a group privately before writing an article or responding to a post here.

 

But I think most of us can agree that the bottom line is if they really think the rules say this and we were all doing it wrong the last few dozen years, then the rules are f**ked and need to be fixed so that the penalties go back to being the way they were intended.

[Cuz]

I've tried looking at this again, and I can't see any way that it's not 2 procedurals as has been mentioned multiple times.  If you came and shot this stage as discussed above at a level 1 match where I was an RO, you would be assessed 2 procedurals and the only thing you would gain if you argued a bit too much is a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct after the normal few minutes of bitching/griping we generally allow.

 

I just can't see it any differently, and I don't think a want to see it any differently.  Not being assessed any penalties for not following the WSB will cause this sport to deteriorate further than it already is.

 

It may be time to focus on my Trap game...

[driver8M3]

1 hour ago, Cuz said:

I've tried looking at this again, and I can't see any way that it's not 2 procedurals as has been mentioned multiple times.  If you came and shot this stage as discussed above at a level 1 match where I was an RO, you would be assessed 2 procedurals and the only thing you would gain if you argued a bit too much is a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct after the normal few minutes of bitching/griping we generally allow.

 

I just can't see it any differently, and I don't think a want to see it any differently.  Not being assessed any penalties for not following the WSB will cause this sport to deteriorate further than it already is.

 

It may be time to focus on my Trap game...

 

What two procedurals would you assess?

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

These are the reason I never really pushed to become a RO. 
but the sport has to have people willing to help out. So I did. 
but if the rules can’t be applied evenly from squad to squad because they lack a common sense understanding. 
what’s the point. I want to enjoy myself also. 
If this stage was run at a monthly it would have a ton of impact on the scores. 

[waktasz]

8 hours ago, motosapiens said:

the one under discussion is the only one that has seemed truly wacked to me, but I may have missed a couple.

The weird thing is I'm pretty sure these don't just come from 1 person without grownup supervision. From my travels and work with several RMI's, I know that they typically discuss these things as a group privately before writing an article or responding to a post here.

 

But I think most of us can agree that the bottom line is if they really think the rules say this and we were all doing it wrong the last few dozen years, then the rules are f**ked and need to be fixed so that the penalties go back to being the way they were intended.

 

The one from two months ago where not moving from box to box on a classifier is only one PE instead of one per shot is also nonsense

[waktasz]

10 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

These are the reason I never really pushed to become a RO. 
but the sport has to have people willing to help out. So I did. 
but if the rules can’t be applied evenly from squad to squad because they lack a common sense understanding. 
what’s the point. I want to enjoy myself also. 
If this stage was run at a monthly it would have a ton of impact on the scores. 

 

el prez is run at probably 100 clubs every weekend and according to this you can shoot it any way you want.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

A correction might be  necessary here  

[waktasz]

I think shooting it 1,2,3, reload, 3, 2, 1 would be best

[Part_time_redneck]

So, my big takeaway from this is the next time I make a VC stage, I should print two identical WSB's. Two ply paper should make it easier for the shooter to wipe their a$$ with the WSB right? 

 

Yes, I'm a resident of Mississippi, born & raised. However, I am at least somewhat fluent in English. At least I thought I was. So now the phrase " only 2 ", means 1 or 3? Copied from their explanation:  The procedure does not say that the reload comes after 6 shots. 

Copied from their WSB: engage T1-T3 with only two rounds per target, make a mandatory reload, then engage T1-T3 with only two rounds per target.

3 targets X ONLY 2 rounds on each. I think the formula is 3 x 2 = 6?  Then again, math's not my strong suit. Looks to me like the WSB clearly in plain English states precisely when the RL should be performed. 

 

Whatever silly interpretation anyone rationalizes for it, only 2 shots per target 3 times adds up to 6. 7 is not ok!    

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

The one from two months ago where not moving from box to box on a classifier is only one PE instead of one per shot is also nonsense

oh, yeah, I forgot about that one. That was crazy, and I'm going to try it next time we run that classifier.

[Cuz]

3 hours ago, driver8M3 said:

 

What two procedurals would you assess?

 

I would assess 2 Procedurals:

 

 

One for not following the WSB:
10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with the procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

 

One for the extra shot before the required reload:
10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

After the penalty assessment, I would let you bitch and moan, and dance a jig if you wanted, for about 5 minutes then politely offer you the option to accept it and move on, or pack up and go home. 

 

The 2nd person to attempt the same thing will have less than 30 seconds to bitch and moan before being offered the same two options.  

 

As has been mentioned before, if the stage being discussed can be shot the way it was shot with no penalties assessed, then there is a problem with the rules, and NROI, and they should be addressed and fixed.

 

 

[waktasz]

You can't give two penalties for one action

[Climbhard]

28 minutes ago, Cuz said:

 

I would assess 2 Procedurals:

 

 

One for not following the WSB:
10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with the procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

 

One for the extra shot before the required reload:
10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

After the penalty assessment, I would let you bitch and moan, and dance a jig if you wanted, for about 5 minutes then politely offer you the option to accept it and move on, or pack up and go home. 

 

The 2nd person to attempt the same thing will have less than 30 seconds to bitch and moan before being offered the same two options.  

 

As has been mentioned before, if the stage being discussed can be shot the way it was shot with no penalties assessed, then there is a problem with the rules, and NROI, and they should be addressed and fixed.

 

 

I think its pretty clear a penalty under 10.2.2 doesnt apply....

 

But one under 10.2.4 does.... because of the words "only two rounds per target".  

[varminter22]

I've read this entire thread once and parts of it two or three times.  

 

My head hurts.  

 

Has anyone heard if NROI is actually going to clear this up?  

[Part_time_redneck]

37 minutes ago, waktasz said:

You can't give two penalties for one action

Wouldn't a hypothetical 13th shot that hit result in extra shot & extra hit penalties from one action? 

 

Not saying that I think 2 are in order here. Just that no penalty is IMHO incorrect. 

 

Going to soak my brain in hooch until I forget about this.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Part_time_redneck
Additional text

[waktasz]

Yes but that is laid out in the rules that way. 

[waktasz]

19 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

I've read this entire thread once and parts of it two or three times.  

 

My head hurts.  

 

Has anyone heard if NROI is actually going to clear this up?  

 

The question of the month and the explanation that follows is supposed to clear things up  

[varminter22]

6 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

The question of the month and the explanation that follows is supposed to clear things up  

Ha!  Yeah!  

 

Well, I think almost all agree that was a miserable fail!