NROI question of the month on Virginia Count, stage procedure, and penalties

[IVC]

4 hours ago, driver8M3 said:

 

What two procedurals would you assess?

9.4.5.3 x2. 

 

10.2.2 is a no-go because of 10.2.2.1. It must be addressed under another rule. 10.2.4 doesn't seem to fit because there is some ambiguity about the definition of "point where the reload was required" (whether it's after 6 shots, after engaging each target, or after engaging each target with exactly two shots). If we define "point where the reload was required" to be after 6 shots or after 2-2-2, the shooter gets 7 procedurals because he never performed the mandatory reload. If we define "point where the reload was required" to be after engaging T1-T3, then the reload was at the correct point and there are no procedurals based on 10.2.4.

 

However, regardless of 10.2.2/10.2.2.1 and 10.2.4, we have an issue with firing more/less shots per 9.4.5.3. My vote would be "two procedurals" as I put in the top line. 

[IVC]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

You can't give two penalties for one action

 

The only limit would be that the number of procedurals cannot exceed the number of scoring shots (10.2.3). I don't see why one couldn't get multiple, not only the extra shots/hits on VC stage, but something like faulting the line and shooting free style when WSB requires WHO/SHO, or similar... 

 

Any thoughts on why it would/wouldn't work? (I haven't thought about this, it's just from the top of my head.) 

[waktasz]

I'm trying to remember my training but I know we discussed "double jeopardy" in the RO or CRO course. 

 

From memory, you can only gain 5 points per shot, so the penalty is 10 points per shot. If you are faulting and shooting wrong handed, you can still only earn 5 points per shot so the penalty is still double that, not two penalties. I'm not 100% on that though. 

 

 

ALSO, I'm of the opinion that 10.2.2.1 does not apply in this case. That rule I believe is in place to prevent giving a penalty for not firing enough shots on a stage, or firing too many, which is already addressed either by extra shot/hit penalties or Mikes.  In this case, the shooter still shot 12 shots, so 10.2.2.1 does not apply at all. 

[sc68cal]

I pretty much agree with that analysis. DNROI's interpretation of 10.2.2.1 basically breaks Virginia count in this corner case. The point of Virginia Count is to require a set number of shots, per target, in a specified order. That should have been the guiding principle when looking at this situation. It is clear that it was not shot correctly, and diving into the rules and finding rules that contradict one another, with the result being that no penalty can be assessed is just an exercise in lawyering, rather than recognizing that something was done incorrectly and taking the single penalty per 10.2.2

Edited February 6, 2023 by sc68cal

[broadside72]

2 hours ago, IVC said:

9.4.5.3 x2. 

 

 

You can't claim stacked shots here because as previously described in other NROI posts it has to save a transition to be stacking and that did not happen in this instance.

[IVC]

34 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

You can't claim stacked shots here because as previously described in other NROI posts it has to save a transition to be stacking and that did not happen in this instance.

It's not in the current rules and I'm going by the book at the moment.

 

Let's see how it changes in the future, and it might very well be that this type of shooting will result in no procedural penalties due to the new transitioning rule. But in the meantime, it's important to stick to the current rules for two reasons. First, interpretation should be based on the rules as-written, without relying on additional sources that are not part of the rulebook, at least until those rules are changed. And second, we don't know which rules will get adopted, and it might even happen that this particular NROI post and associated comments influence what happens next. 

[Gene_WI]

With this new interpretation: On the "can you count classifier" can I shoot 5 on T1, 4 On T2 re-load and shoot 1 on T2? Can I draw, reload, and then shoot 5 and 5?

 

Asking for a friend.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Answer is one. One for the extra shot on the first string.

 

 

 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Don’t think you can penalize him for not taking enough shots … gotta look though 

but it would be a extra shot on the first string. 
then you score the targets. 

[broadside72]

1 hour ago, IVC said:

It's not in the current rules and I'm going by the book at the moment.

 

Let's see how it changes in the future, and it might very well be that this type of shooting will result in no procedural penalties due to the new transitioning rule. But in the meantime, it's important to stick to the current rules for two reasons. First, interpretation should be based on the rules as-written, without relying on additional sources that are not part of the rulebook, at least until those rules are changed. And second, we don't know which rules will get adopted, and it might even happen that this particular NROI post and associated comments influence what happens next. 

This situation still isn't stacking as the shooter didn't shoot more than required at one target while shooting fewer at another target. 

[Cuz]

At the very least, I just don't see how you can talk your way out of at least 1 procedural for the extra shot before the required reload:

10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

 

The WSB says it's a mandatory reload after engaging targets with 2 rounds each.  Seems very clear to me.

[BMSMB]

The only thing I got from this, is that the current rules are inadequate. Why make this a question of the month instead of fixing the "problem"?

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

The reload was right spot for reengagement but it come down to if they HAVE TO fire 2 mandatory rounds !  
 

[DirtyB]

1 hour ago, BMSMB said:

The only thing I got from this, is that the current rules are inadequate. Why make this a question of the month instead of fixing the "problem"?

At the least, the rules are very unclear or if they are, difficult to interpret easily. 

 

That is obvious by the voting results. 
 

Virtually no one chose “no penalty.”

[Southpaw]

4 hours ago, BMSMB said:

The only thing I got from this, is that the current rules are inadequate. Why make this a question of the month instead of fixing the "problem"?

 

[ddc]

My semi-serious Psych 101 analysis of this is that the question of the month was written by someone who was thinking to themselves "wow, here is this interesting little corner condition in the rulebook, I wonder how many shooters are aware of it."

 

and then laid out the scenario described.

At this point they probably realize how bad this looks and is perhaps trying to figure out the best way to handle a bad situation. At least I hope that is what is happening behind the scenes.

 

[BritinUSA]

...another epic fail.
 

I can't help but wonder if this is why IPSC trashed VC and Fixed Time all those years ago.

[RJH]

VC and timed fire are not the problem. Both of them test skills in a different way than standard courses of fire and that is a good thing. 

 

Actually clearing up rules is not a bad thing, this "clarification" did not do that

 

 

 

[Cuz]

On 2/3/2023 at 6:05 AM, Brooke said:

This is stage 19 of the 2022 Limited/Open Racegun Nationals at Talladega. I was lucky enough to be on a squad with the well known RMI George Jones. A super nice guy for the record.You can see the WSB and stage diagram for yourself. Target 3 is the open target. 

 

George shot this 1 to target 3 followed by 2 to each of the others targets without a reload, then reloaded and shot 3 to target 3.

 

This caused untold confusion among everyone who witnessed it including the RO's on the stage. The confusion was how many procedurals is this. I don't think anyone in Alabama thought it was zero procedurals other than George. RM was called and after he discussed it with the CRO and George (who was legitimately in the conversation as the shooter) it was ruled zero procedurals. I have never thought this was correct until reading this ruling from NROI.

 

Apparently zero procedurals is the proper ruling and it will certainly change my behavior going forward. I can't post the stage picture. Google 2022 Racegun Nationals Matchbook and go to stage 19

 

[STAGE 19]

RUNAROUND SUE

STARTING POSITION:

stage sponsored by

 

In shooting area, wrists below belt, handgun loaded and holstered.

STAGE PROCEDURE:

Upon audible start signal engage T3 with only four rounds, then perform a mandatory reload and engage T1,T2,T4,T5 with only two rounds each. Arrays may be engaged in any order.

TARGETS: 5 IPSC
SCORING: Virginia Count | ROUNDS: 12

50 BACK TO BACK NATIONALS 2022

Does anyone know if George shot it this way intentionally, or if it was an accident?

 

Just wondering…

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

Both of them test skills in a different way

 

What practical skill is VC testing?

Edited February 7, 2023 by Boomstick303

[RJH]

18 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

What practical skill is VC testing?

 

Definitely test accuracy more than a "normal"stage. Since any makeup shots cost you a tremendous amount of points you have to live with your first shots. 

 

Also test a different style of cognitive ability. How many times do you hear people say "I never shoot as well on classifiers", which are generally Virginia account stages. The pressure of knowing if you screw up you have to live with it, makes people screw up.

 

Virginia count stages also tend to be a better test of fundamentals than  Comstock ime, once again due to the lack of makeup shots. 

 

Basically VC forces accuracy with no recourse, unlike Comstock 

 

 

All of that seems to be very practical to me

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

All of that seems to be very practical to me

 

I can live with those reasons, but if VC went away you can test those skills in a normal field course. 

 

The recourse in any stage is time.  Steel plates at various distances, creating head box only shots at various distances with low total points versus time can recreate what you are trying to do with VC.  Misses on steel and Mikes on difficult paper target presentations penalize a shooter with time and points.  If you are not seasoned enough to recognize HF of a certain stage dictates as many points as possible is the answer shooters are penalized accordingly.  As a seasoned shooter if you do not respect the target presentation for the same stage they are penalized accordingly.  Swingers and other action props can test the pressure aspect you described by creating timing stages with multiple props.  

 

People may not realize it but you can feasibly recreate what you are describing in a normal Comstock course of fire.  

 

VC is a waste of time in my eyes.  Could care less if I ever shot another VC stage again in my life.  

 

 

[shred]

Originally VC made it hard to game El Prez, by skipping the reload or doing it out of order but with the current 'interpretations', who knows.

 

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I can live with those reasons, but if VC went away you can test those skills in a normal field course. 

 

The recourse in any stage is time.  Steel plates at various distances, creating head box only shots at various distances with low total points versus time can recreate what you are trying to do with VC.  Misses on steel and Mikes on difficult paper target presentations penalize a shooter with time and points.  If you are not seasoned enough to recognize HF of a certain stage dictates as many points as possible is the answer shooters are penalized accordingly.  As a seasoned shooter if you do not respect the target presentation for the same stage they are penalized accordingly.  Swingers and other action props can test the pressure aspect you described by creating timing stages with multiple props.  

 

People may not realize it but you can feasibly recreate what you are describing in a normal Comstock course of fire.  

 

VC is a waste of time in my eyes.  Could care less if I ever shot another VC stage again in my life.  

 

 

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree LOL.

 

With Virginia count having penalized makeup shots, it changes the whole aspect of the stage and changes the risk versus reward Factor quite a bit imo. 

 

I don't want every stage to be Virginia account or anything like that, but I do think it has a place 

 

Have a good one

 

 

[Boomstick303]

I honestly do not see VC leaving anytime soon.

 

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

We'll just have to agree to disagree LOL.

 

That's easy enough.  I won't even call you a sissy or a whiner.......