NROI question of the month on Virginia Count, stage procedure, and penalties

[Fishbreath]

For reference, here's the post explaining the answer.

 

The example stage is a three-target Virginia Count speed shoot, with this briefing: "Engage T1-T3 with only two rounds each, perform a mandatory reload, and engage T1-T3 with only two rounds each." The scenario is that the shooter goes 2-2-3, reload, 2-2-1. NROI's answer is 'no penalty'.

 

I can more or less reason my way to this, but I'm wondering where the limit is.

 

10.2.2.1 says we can't apply stage procedure penalties for the number of shots fired—we have to use specific penalties in the rulebook for that (one of extra shots, extra hits, or stacking, from 9.4.5).

 

The only one that could possibly apply is stacked shots. I see two interpretations, based on the glossary definition of 'stacked shots' and the wording of 9.4.5.3:

 

• 2-2-3, 2-2-1 is a gap in the rules: 2-1-3, 2-3-1 would be two stacking penalties for incorrectly engaging T2 and T3, but because the definition for stacked shots is "shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing", incorrectly engaging only a single target doesn't as a penalty.
• Since all targets are engaged both before and after the reload, no targets are "incorrectly engaged" (9.4.5.3). "Incorrectly engaged" means engaging a target you aren't supposed to engage during a portion of the stage procedure, or failing to engage a target you are supposed to engage, or stacking shots during the freestyle portion of a freestyle-to-one-hand stage, no stacking penalties would apply, no matter how you engage the targets. As long as you fire a total of 12 shots with 4 hits per target, you're okay. 3-3-3, 1-1-1, for instance, is acceptable.

 

The argument for the second interpretation seems a little stronger, but it also leads to the really weird outcome that freestyle-reload-freestyle Virginia Count speed shoots don't actually mean 'only two shots' when they say 'only two shots'.

 

What do you think?

[LordManHammer]

I just completed my RO certification 2 months ago.  It's situations like the one described why I will likely never volunteer to utilize my training as an official RO at a match.  Seems ridiculous to have rules even trained officials can't interpret (via the pie chart in the link).

[Racinready300ex]

This seems like a case to dump Virginia count.  

 

 

[VeilAndrew]

If the stage description specifically says "No stacking," then what? Pure curiosity.

[RJH]

Wow, it looks like nroi completely disregarded 10.2.4

 

A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed

 

 

 

 

I believe those guys are starting to just trick themselves

[broadside72]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

Wow, it looks like nroi completely disregarded 10.2.4

 

A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed

 

 

 

 

I believe those guys are starting to just trick themselves

 

 

Good question. This is from the article
 

Quote

So the competitor took an extra shot at T3 on the first engagement, probably to make up a miss, before the mandatory reload. As a result, each target was engaged before the mandatory reload was made, and engaged again after the reload. No penalty for failing to make the mandatory reload at the right time.

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by broadside72

[RJH]

1 minute ago, broadside72 said:

 

Where did the shooter fail to reload? The problem says the reload was done after engaging all three targets

 

It's not about failing to reload, it's about failing to reload at the required time according to the WSB. Read the WSB then reread 10.2.4

 

 

There is a point that the WSB states that they reload is required. That point is after engaging t1 through t3 with two rounds each. The competitor does not do that. He fires an extra shot then reloads, incurring one procedural penalty for not following the WSB as per 10.2.4

[broadside72]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

It's not about failing to reload, it's about failing to reload at the required time according to the WSB. Read the WSB then reread 10.2.4

 

 

There is a point that the WSB states that they reload is required. That point is after engaging t1 through t3 with two rounds each. The competitor does not do that. He fires an extra shot then reloads, incurring one procedural penalty for not following the WSB as per 10.2.4

I reread your post and edited my reply

[Fishbreath]

13 minutes ago, RJH said:

The competitor does not do that. He fires an extra shot then reloads, incurring one procedural penalty for not following the WSB as per 10.2.4

 

That's against 10.2.2.1, though:

 

Quote

Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2 [which covers general violations of stage procedure].

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

This seems like a case to dump Virginia count. 

 

+1,000,000

 

And to never set up a speed shoot remotely similar to this one

[RJH]

28 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

That's against 10.2.2.1, though:

 

 

 

It's not a penalty for firing too many or too little shots, it's a penalty for making a reload in a time that is not prescribed in the WSB 

 

 

 

Insufficient shots would be penalized under a miss, and that's why they're not penalized here. Additional shots in Virginia count are penalized for being additional shots, which were not taken, so there is no penalty for additional shots

 

 

 

The penalty discussed here is solely a penalty on not following stage procedure. Once again, there is a point in the WSB for a reload is required, if the re load is not made at that point there is going to be a per shot penalty as per rule 10.2.4. That reload is required after engaging t1 through t3 with two shots each, any shot taken after that but before a reload would incur a penalty as per 10.2.4.  

 

The penalty would not be for too few or too many shots, the penalty is for not following stage procedure 10.2.2.1 does not apply to this situation

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by RJH

[Southpaw]

So by this logic, we could shoot El Prez 3-3-3, reload, 1-1-1 with no penalties?

 

Who wants to run it both ways and see if makes a difference on the clock 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

38 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

So by this logic, we could shoot El Prez 3-3-3, reload, 1-1-1 with no penalties?

 

Who wants to run it both ways and see if makes a difference on the clock 

 

[waktasz]

NROI should call this a clue that their current training methods are failing. 

[waktasz]

44 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

So by this logic, we could shoot El Prez 3-3-3, reload, 1-1-1 with no penalties?

 

Who wants to run it both ways and see if makes a difference on the clock 

 

Not on the clock, but the scores would be better, I'd wager

 

[broadside72]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

The penalty discussed here is solely a penalty on not following stage procedure. Once again, there is a point in the WSB for a reload is required, if the re load is not made at that point there is going to be a per shot penalty as per rule 10.2.4. That reload is required after engaging t1 through t3 with two shots each, any shot taken after that but before a reload would incur a penalty as per 10.2.4.  

 

I am starting to agree that it should apply for the one shot since the point where the reload was required was after the 6th shot
 

10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural
penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

 

Or was that point after the 2nd shot on the third target? If the shooter shot 3, 2, 2 reload 1, 2, 2 then would it be the same situation? I don't think it would be because the shooter did reload after all targets were engaged twice. 

[waktasz]

 

3 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

That's against 10.2.2.1, though:

 

 

 

The number of shots fired is still correct (12). 10.2.2.1 is related to not applying a general procedural for extra shots (theres a rule for that) or not shooting enough shots (mikes)

I don't think 10.2.2.1 applies at all. 

It's one of the things you'd have to go back and see who wrote 10.2.2.1 and what case it was trying to prevent. I think NROI got it wrong (again)

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, Southpaw said:

So by this logic, we could shoot El Prez 3-3-3, reload, 1-1-1 with no penalties?

 

Who wants to run it both ways and see if makes a difference on the clock 

Why even do that ? just go 4 4 4 4..  then reload...
NROI drops the ball again.. Seems to be a thing of issuing rulings contrary to whats in the rule book..  

 

[waktasz]

because it still says engage after the reload. Engage means fire 1 shot

 

[IVC]

5 hours ago, RJH said:

It's not a penalty for firing too many or too little shots, it's a penalty for making a reload in a time that is not prescribed in the WSB 

The reload is at the correct time since WSB says to reload after engaging T1-T3 which he did.

 

But I'm not following why 9.4.5.3 doesn't apply (stacked shots) since the default is that stacked shots are NOT allowed (unless specifically authorized). The appendix A3 defines stacked shots as: "Shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing." which is exactly what the shooter did. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by IVC

[IVC]

8 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

Since all targets are engaged both before and after the reload, no targets are "incorrectly engaged" (9.4.5.3). "Incorrectly engaged" means engaging a target you aren't supposed to engage during a portion of the stage procedure, or failing to engage a target you are supposed to engage, or stacking shots during the freestyle portion of a freestyle-to-one-hand stage, no stacking penalties would apply, no matter how you engage the targets. As long as you fire a total of 12 shots with 4 hits per target, you're okay. 3-3-3, 1-1-1, for instance, is acceptable.

This also makes no sense. Imagine that the COF was to shoot weak hand after the reload. Using this argument, I could shoot 3-3-3 free style, then shoot 1-1-1 weak hand. 

[mikeg1005]

2 minutes ago, IVC said:

The reload is at the correct time since WSB says to reload after engaging T1-T3 which he did.

 

But I'm not following why 9.4.5.3 doesn't apply (stacked shots) since the default is that stacked shots are NOT allowed (unless specifically authorized). The appendix A3 defines stacked shots as: "Shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer shots than specified in the stage briefing." which is exactly what the shooter did. 

Shooting more than the specified shots at a target(s) while shooting

other target(s) with fewer shots than specified i

n the stage briefing.

 

Uspsa clarified stacking of shots in the new rule audit saying it's stacking if you avoid transitions.  Not shots on target being wrong.  So as long as you engage all the targets its not stacking.

[IVC]

Just now, mikeg1005 said:

Uspsa clarified stacking of shots in the new rule audit saying it's stacking if you avoid transitions.  Not shots on target being wrong.  So as long as you engage all the targets its not stacking.

Is it already adopted? I looked at the actual wording of the most current rules published on the USPSA website. 

[mikeg1005]

Just now, IVC said:

Is it already adopted? I looked at the actual wording of the most current rules published on the USPSA website. 

 

The example they give in the current rulebook is 2,2 reload 2,2...if shot 4,0 reload 0,4 is stacking.  

 

3,1 reload 1,3 is not stacking...its not anything per this interpretation in the question of the month.

[mikeg1005]

So 10.2.2.1 says where shots are fired doesn't matter as long as they add up and you engage stuff correctly. 

 

The example states that shootiny only ONE shot on the last target 2,2,3 reload 2,2,"1" is ok because you engaged the target, and shooting another shot would be extra shot/hit. 

 

So.... let's say a WSB is written exactly the same...but a second string is added 2,2,2 freestyle, reload, 2,2,2 SHO.

 

What rule...would prevent me from doing 3,3,3 FS, reload, 1,1,1 SHO.

 

It is not stacking as stacking only applies if you don't engage all targets and I didn't violate 10.2.2 because 10.2.2.1 states penalties cannot be given for wrong shots fired in WSB so no violation for competitive advantage.

 

Legal, yes? 

Edited February 3, 2023 by mikeg1005