Limited Optics

[BritinUSA]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

If that's true they should of taken it out once it became a full division.

Agreed, once they took it out of provisional status the dot requirement should have been the same as with Open, ie. It's allowed not mandated.

 

5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

lol, in an odd coincidence, they only made the dot rule after Stoeger started sh*t talking about winning CO nats with iron sights just to flex on everyone.

They made the change after I emailed them about it, which I did as soon as they released the provisional rule-set.

[shred]

The fact they still haven't pulled it out suggests the stated reason may not be the actual reason.

 

[BritinUSA]

It requires critical thinking to determine why the rule was put in; So I'll explain it again:

 

The purpose of the provisional division was to determine if there was enough interest from the members to add it to the official line-up.

 

If people could shoot guns that were NOT production optics guns during the trial then it would artificially raise those numbers and the org would have added a new division when there was insufficient interest in it.

 

To not put that rule in place at the time would have invalidated the study.

 

That they have failed to remove this rule in a timely manner does not invalidate the reason.

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

It requires critical thinking to determine why the rule was put in; So I'll explain it again:

 

The purpose of the provisional division was to determine if there was enough interest from the members to add it to the official line-up.

 

If people could shoot guns that were NOT production optics guns during the trial then it would artificially raise those numbers and the org would have added a new division when there was insufficient interest in it.

 

why would someone have entered CO with a non-optic gun (other than to flex on optics shooters)? under the original rules it was still 10 rds, and fully production legal guns, so there is no incentive to not just shoot prod. That is no longer the case, obviously.

 

If you wrote a letter to the board about it, maybe you were the one who was skeered of Stoeger and his iron sights.

[waktasz]

Initially because the first CO Nats was a one day match after Production Nats in Illinois, and people were going to stick around and just shoot it with their Prod gear. That was quickly outlawed. 

 

[GigG]

23 hours ago, Rich406 said:

 

When CO came in the general remarks I heard, were how stupid a dot on a gun was. And then there were the usual statements of, "they can shoot open" or "dots are for Timmy's".

 

Yes manufacturers displayed guns with dots on them over 5 years ago. but they have really come into their own in the last 3ish years. 

 

All I'm really saying here is this. Once something has been around long enough to determine that it is not a fad. there should be some serious consideration about making a place for it in USPSA.  Slide mounted optics are here to stay, and 2011s are a popular pistol. There should be a place for it other than open.

 

The thing is dots have been around and used in USPSA since 89-90.  We probably wouldn't see the dots we have now had they not been.

[Rich406]

1 minute ago, GigG said:

 

The thing is dots have been around and used in USPSA since 89-90.  We probably wouldn't see the dots we have now had they not been.

Yes, because the average citizen was packing around a pistol with a 6 inch tube on the top.......

 

Dots on pistols were super niche before a few years ago. Now, they are everywhere.  And that was the point of my post.

[GigG]

Just now, Rich406 said:

Yes, because the average citizen was packing around a pistol with a 6 inch tube on the top.......

 

Dots on pistols were super niche before a few years ago. Now, they are everywhere.  And that was the point of my post.

 

We wouldn't have the dot sights we have now had it not been for the use of their much bigger grandfathers in USPSA.  Even with those huge ProPoints the sport proved they were faster than iron sights.  

[Dazhi]

[shred]

12 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

It requires critical thinking to determine why the rule was put in; So I'll explain it again:

 

The purpose of the provisional division was to determine if there was enough interest from the members to add it to the official line-up.

 

If people could shoot guns that were NOT production optics guns during the trial then it would artificially raise those numbers and the org would have added a new division when there was insufficient interest in it.

 

To not put that rule in place at the time would have invalidated the study.

 

That they have failed to remove this rule in a timely manner does not invalidate the reason.

Exactly my point, putting aside your stuffy attitude-- that's the stated reason, but in reality participation or lack thereof has never been a reason for USPSA to kill a division or even stop a provisional one from being permanent.  See: Single Stack, Revolver, Limited-10.

 

IPSC will eventually discontinue unpopular divisions, but USPSA?  Not so much.

[YVK]

I tried to read between the lines of that brief piece that @Dazhi posted above.

"Refine division appendix to align with current Limited Division appendix rules" reads like major/minor scoring to me. Otherwise what else wasn't "aligned", sans the optic, between the proposed LO and current Limited.

Acknowledging generally positive member feedback reads like "it's gonna happen in some form sometime".

 

Anyway, glad they posted it eventually. 

[Nathanb]

15 minutes ago, YVK said:

I tried to read between the lines of that brief piece that @Dazhi posted above.

"Refine division appendix to align with current Limited Division appendix rules" reads like major/minor scoring to me. Otherwise what else wasn't "aligned", sans the optic, between the proposed LO and current Limited.

Acknowledging generally positive member feedback reads like "it's gonna happen in some form sometime".

 

Anyway, glad they posted it eventually. 

This is how I took it as well. But also gains magwells. 

[3gunDMD]

3 hours ago, YVK said:

I tried to read between the lines of that brief piece that @Dazhi posted above.

"Refine division appendix to align with current Limited Division appendix rules" reads like major/minor scoring to me. Otherwise what else wasn't "aligned", sans the optic, between the proposed LO and current Limited.

Acknowledging generally positive member feedback reads like "it's gonna happen in some form sometime".

 

Anyway, glad they posted it eventually. 

Hopefully not. That would certainly make it different than CO but I wouldn’t expect the division to do very well with major/minor scoring. 

[MikeRussell]

7 hours ago, 3gunDMD said:

Hopefully not. That would certainly make it different than CO but I wouldn’t expect the division to do very well with major/minor scoring. 

Without major/minor scoring, you might as well just add SAO to CO and be done. 

[Makicjf]

14 minutes ago, MikeRussell said:

Without major/minor scoring, you might as well just add SAO to CO and be done. 

Perhaps the long term goal is to do just that.

Perhaps merging LO minor with CO and adding the option of an  optic for Limited major for the Major PF diehards?

Jason

[Nathanb]

Honestly it’s the right move for a provisional division. See who’s shooting major. See if that’s even a thing for it. They did decide to call it limited optics right 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, MikeRussell said:

Without major/minor scoring, you might as well just add SAO to CO and be done. 

 

LO being minor is basically the same as adding SAO to CO. They could in time just kill CO and move everyone into LO assuming we find no measurable difference between the two divisions. All you would do is add a magwell to your CO gun. I'm sure the Legion guys would love that. Those grips take a beating without the magwell on them for protection.

[Nathanb]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

LO being minor is basically the same as adding SAO to CO. They could in time just kill CO and move everyone into LO assuming we find no measurable difference between the two divisions. All you would do is add a magwell to your CO gun. I'm sure the Legion guys would love that. Those grips take a beating without the magwell on them for protection.

Honestly who turns down a magwell if you can have it? You can practically throw a mag in with the magwell on it 

[YVK]

9 hours ago, 3gunDMD said:

Hopefully not. That would certainly make it different than CO but I wouldn’t expect the division to do very well with major/minor scoring. 

 

I myself am less interested in the immediate success of this division than in figuring out what exactly the membership wants. CO wasn't successful at first either.  If they don't allow major even in the testing / provisional phase, they'll never find out about this part at all. I think that folks who feel strongly about having LO as a minor only have various options how to provide a meaningful feedback. Keep shooting CO. Shoot LO in minor. Shoot open in minor. If LO never takes off because of major/minor deal, the board would have to make some changes  before making it permanent.

[RJH]

Just now, YVK said:

 

I myself am less interested in the immediate success of this division than in figuring out what exactly the membership wants. CO wasn't successful at first either.  If they don't allow major even in the testing / provisional phase, they'll never find out about this part at all. I think that folks who feel strongly about having LO as a minor only have various options how to provide a meaningful feedback. Keep shooting CO. Shoot LO in minor. Shoot open in minor. If LO never takes off because of major/minor deal, the board would have to make some changes  before making it permanent.

 

The problem with allowing major from the get-go is that you basically require it. So now anybody interested in shooting it seriously is going to have a major gun built, then in 3 years when you go well that was a bad idea, those people that had a major gun built are going to start crying,  "but I had a major gun built because that was what the rules said." And they will have a valid point.

 

40 caliber sales Fall every year. Major gun companies reduce the number of guns that they sell in 40 caliber every year. 45 outsells 40, if you're going to allow major it actually makes more sense to standardized major as being 45 caliber, but that doesn't make any sense either because nine outsells both by a huge margin. 

 

At this point in history any new division USPSA makes needs to be minor only, anything else is just throwing good money after bad.

 

There are multiple single action only optic ready guns that would be very appropriate for this game factory available in 9 mm, I don't know of any in 40 cal, though there could possibly be one.

 

I say all this as a guy who has a 40 caliber limited gun in my gun safe, but I know that's a dead end before it starts. I mean hell there's a lot of people shooting Sao minor guns in limited as it is now. I know people think that only noobs are shooting minor in limited as it is today, but that's just not true. I do know a lot of people start out shooting limited min or because that's what they have, but there's a bunch of people that just shoot it because 9 mil is the future and building a 40 caliber gun just doesn't make sense

 

[Makicjf]

15 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

The problem with allowing major from the get-go is that you basically require it. So now anybody interested in shooting it seriously is going to have a major gun built, then in 3 years when you go well that was a bad idea, those people that had a major gun built are going to start crying,  "but I had a major gun built because that was what the rules said." And they will have a valid point.

 

40 caliber sales Fall every year. Major gun companies reduce the number of guns that they sell in 40 caliber every year. 45 outsells 40, if you're going to allow major it actually makes more sense to standardized major as being 45 caliber, but that doesn't make any sense either because nine outsells both by a huge margin. 

 

At this point in history any new division USPSA makes needs to be minor only, anything else is just throwing good money after bad.

 

There are multiple single action only optic ready guns that would be very appropriate for this game factory available in 9 mm, I don't know of any in 40 cal, though there could possibly be one.

 

I say all this as a guy who has a 40 caliber limited gun in my gun safe, but I know that's a dead end before it starts. I mean hell there's a lot of people shooting Sao minor guns in limited as it is now. I know people think that only noobs are shooting minor in limited as it is today, but that's just not true. I do know a lot of people start out shooting limited min or because that's what they have, but there's a bunch of people that just shoot it because 9 mil is the future and building a 40 caliber gun just doesn't make sense

 

This may be true, but begs the question: how do you eliminate major pf (outside of open?) without alienating current major pf limited shooters?

Perhaps simply by letting it die a slow death via natural selection? 

 How does a sport whose primary founding tenant was "Power on Target" eliminate the reward for shooting major pf?

It may actually be an anachronism, and eliminating major only effects 2 divisions ( if you discount L10).  Those divisions would be Limited and SS. Open shooters could load to comp effectiveness even if all scoring was 5/3/1 or 5/4/2.

I'd hazard a guess that most SS shooters have both a major and minor set-up.  They simply all convert to 9.

If 17.5% of overall participation was limited and roughly 50% actually shoot minor; then only 8.5% of limited shooters shot major.  The question then becomes how does the sport "ease" the transition  for those 8.5% into minor only?

  Without the points advantage 9mm limited has all the practical advantages of increased capacity and decreased recoil.  However, making obsolete some expensive toys may alienate a reasonable percentage of that 8.5%. However, it is possible that many Limited major shooters also have a 9mm limited setup, or can,without horrific expense, convert their 40 blaster to 9mm.

  I think you are correct that outside of open( for the comp to function) major pf is an anachronism. If all scoring was made equal, how do you suggest that transition occurs without creating problems?

Jason

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, Makicjf said:

If all scoring was made equal, how do you suggest that transition occurs without creating problems?

 

You don't touch current divisions with Major in them.  Let time, market, and membership decide the fate of Major.  As anyone with a brain can see low cap divisions are on their way out.  I cannot see USPSA creating anymore low cap divisions, and in the future I cannot see them creating anymore divisions where Major is an option. 

 

Much like Low Cap divisions (guns) membership will indicate what you do with Major.  Until then leave it alone.

 

[waktasz]

Make Lim Minor it's own division too

[3gunDMD]

53 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

The problem with allowing major from the get-go is that you basically require it. So now anybody interested in shooting it seriously is going to have a major gun built, then in 3 years when you go well that was a bad idea, those people that had a major gun built are going to start crying,  "but I had a major gun built because that was what the rules said." And they will have a valid point.

 

40 caliber sales Fall every year. Major gun companies reduce the number of guns that they sell in 40 caliber every year. 45 outsells 40, if you're going to allow major it actually makes more sense to standardized major as being 45 caliber, but that doesn't make any sense either because nine outsells both by a huge margin. 

 

At this point in history any new division USPSA makes needs to be minor only, anything else is just throwing good money after bad.

 

There are multiple single action only optic ready guns that would be very appropriate for this game factory available in 9 mm, I don't know of any in 40 cal, though there could possibly be one.

 

I say all this as a guy who has a 40 caliber limited gun in my gun safe, but I know that's a dead end before it starts. I mean hell there's a lot of people shooting Sao minor guns in limited as it is now. I know people think that only noobs are shooting minor in limited as it is today, but that's just not true. I do know a lot of people start out shooting limited min or because that's what they have, but there's a bunch of people that just shoot it because 9 mil is the future and building a 40 caliber gun just doesn't make sense

 

I agree with this completely. Well said. 

[shred]

Major lets you do things that don't work out in Minor.  It really is a different game, and most Major shooters like it that way. 

 

Yeah, .40 ls less popular in factory ammo but somehow 30+% of Open shooters still shoot .38 Super and Supercomp.

 

The way to get rid of Major without pissing people off is to add some complexity-- for a while-- make a "Mid" PF around 135-140.  Scores 5-4-1, so major points for the C and minor points for the D.  Recognizes power on target since LE doesn't shoot 125 PF 9 and penalized bad shots.  

 

Within a couple years everyone will shoot that and nobody will care about Major or Minor anymore and they can go away.