Limited Optics

[Dazhi]

LO can be a fun division, but in major matches I don't see why people would leave CO for LO.  

 

Some people say the best shooters in CO will move to LO, brining in others who want to compete with the best.

Who are the best shooters in CO right now?  The sponsored shooters, e.g. Sig, Canik, Walther, Beretta etc.  What would make them want to leave CO and shoot LO?  I don't see any reason.  If the top shooters stay in CO,  LO will only be drawing from top Open or Limited shooters.   It still can be very competitive, but I fail to see how LO will overtake CO until these two merge into one.  

[Southpaw]

57 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

To add to it IDPA already allows SAO in their CO Division (Provisional still?).  Be curious to see how the various platforms shake out there?

 

I know nothing about IDPA. What guns are popular in CO for IDPA? Are a wide variety of guns used, including many of the currently popular USPSA CO guns? Or is it dominated by expensive custom 2011s, as some here fear would happen if LO replaced CO in USPSA? 

[RangerTrace]

21 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

 

I know nothing about IDPA. What guns are popular in CO for IDPA? Are a wide variety of guns used, including many of the currently popular USPSA CO guns? Or is it dominated by expensive custom 2011s, as some here fear would happen if LO replaced CO in USPSA? 

There are some people shooting 2011 style pistols with dots, but mostly Glocks, Sigs and CZ.  

[Joe4d]

5 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

The first quote  is why major should die. 

 

 

 

As a guy who prefers to shoot major, and was vehemently against doing away with major, I finally come to the realization that trying to keep a dying caliber around just because I like it doesn't actually help the sport at all. A few years back there were multiple low-cost options in 40 cal that could actually be competitive in limited. Now there are basically none other than a glock 35. And all I mean by being competitive in limited is capacity of 19 or more rounds of 40 ammo. You had guns like the glock 35, m&p, xdms, edges, eagles, paras, etc. Now you have a glock 35, a rock island, or a custom gun, maybe a CZ. 40 is dead in the free market and having a division that clings onto it is kind of silly.

 

I know you will bring up that your agency just bought some 40 caliber pistols, and that's good, but 45 ACP outsells 40. It would be dumb to have a division built around 45 ACP, just like it's now dumb to have one built around 40

 

 

So here I am, a guy that prefers major, has a limited gun in 40, carries a 40 caliber pistol every day, but even I can see that having a division that basically requires 40 caliber to be competitive is dumb and past its time.

 

This is why I think USPSA should just rip the Band-Aid off and go with minor only. Or at worst say in 3 years all divisions are going to be minor only, except maybe low cap that is 10 minor eight major lol. That would give everybody time to wear out their major gun, order a minor gun, or have their major gun converted to 9 mil.

 

I know fudds won't like it, but it's where we're going to end up anyway. And not admitting it is just throwing good money after bad

 

 

All those companies have come out with 10mm's  which seems to be making a comeback and probably easier to make run well in 1911/2011 based platforms. Everyone is long loading the ammo to 10mm length anyways. 

 

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, Southpaw said:

 

I know nothing about IDPA. What guns are popular in CO for IDPA? Are a wide variety of guns used, including many of the currently popular USPSA CO guns? Or is it dominated by expensive custom 2011s, as some here fear would happen if LO replaced CO in USPSA?  

 I don't know either.  It's limited to 10 rounds, and is based on their enhanced service pistol, which has no restriction on firearm except fit the box.  Magwells are allowed.  Locally it seems sig is popular, I've used my g34.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Southpaw said:

 

I know nothing about IDPA. What guns are popular in CO for IDPA? Are a wide variety of guns used, including many of the currently popular USPSA CO guns? Or is it dominated by expensive custom 2011s, as some here fear would happen if LO replaced CO in USPSA? 

 

Most popular gun I see is a legion. 

[shred]

Is .40 more or less dead than .38 Super or .357 Sig?  USPSA even has special rules to cater to .357 Sig shooters.

 

I just looked on a large firearm distributor website.  There are 79 different SKUs of .40 caliber pistols in stock there that you could order today.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, Dazhi said:

LO can be a fun division, but in major matches I don't see why people would leave CO for LO.  

 

Some people say the best shooters in CO will move to LO, brining in others who want to compete with the best.

Who are the best shooters in CO right now?  The sponsored shooters, e.g. Sig, Canik, Walther, Beretta etc.  What would make them want to leave CO and shoot LO?  I don't see any reason.  If the top shooters stay in CO,  LO will only be drawing from top Open or Limited shooters.   It still can be very competitive, but I fail to see how LO will overtake CO until these two merge into one.  

 

 

Some of those people that are paid to shoot are only paid if they do well.  If other top guys are shooting CO, bet some will shoot LO to get a win. 

 

See world shoot POL for evidence. 

 

Another thought,  why wouldn't a sponsor want their gun to win both divisions? I'm sure those sponsored guys will support a new division. At the end of the day It's just one more shot at a title.

[Boomstick303]

9 hours ago, Bdh821 said:

I’m all setup!

 

Is that the stock magwell?

[Boomstick303]

3 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Explain how changing the cost to entry going from $800-1000 for pistol + optic to $4k+ for a pistol will make a division more popular?

 

I am not sure that is the correct way to look at how people are going to initially see the division as a new shooter.  I think new shooters will be to bring gun with a dot they can buy over the counter and immediately shoot it in a Division without having to do anything to the gun.  Load up their mags, and blast away.  Do I think it will increase membership immediately?  Doubtful, it will cannibalize other Divisions initially, but I can see a situation where majority of the new shooters end up in either CO and/or LO.  

 

Imagine a Division you can just show up and shoot, and be on a level playing field in regards to PF and mag capacity (for the most part) without having to a darn thing to your gun.  I think LO will keep new shooters around longer.

 

If LO actually becomes a Provisonal Division I think it will become very popular very quick.  

 

It will be interesting how is shakes out regardless of any of our opinions.   

 

[Jim Watson]

5 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

 

 

You guys are talking about contending, the way I see it, which is a different beast from competing. You don't need to be in the conversation for match wins to compete; all you need to do is take competition seriously.

 

Competition vs. play is largely down to state of mind. In high school, I was never in contention to win events in track or cross-country, but I wasn't there to play for fun, either. Nowadays, when I choose to spend a day outdoors golfing instead of at the range, I recognize that it is pure play, not a serious competitive outlet for me but something I find enjoyable.

 

I'm not in contention in either of those pursuits, but one is nevertheless a competitive pursuit.

 

Thanks.  I have really been getting tired of the arrogant "competitors" looking down their noses at "participants" and "players."

 

My entry fee is as good as Nils' and I am trying hard.  Just because I am not on the winners' podium does not mean I am not competing.

[Southpaw]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

Imagine a Division you can just show up and shoot, and be on a level playing field in regards to PF and mag capacity (for the most part) without having to a darn thing to your gun.  I think LO will keep new shooters around longer.

 

Yup.  And that's why it makes sense having Limited  Minor and Limited Optics divisions.  Pretty much every gun new shooters are typically showing up with would fit well into one of those two divisions.  Even more so if you set capacity for those divisions at around 19rds (either by lower mag length limit or gun+mag must fit box).

 

And those two divisions also match what most current USPSA members like shooting.  Since more than half of current Limited activity is minor, and all CO guns would fit into LO.

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, RJH said:

 

You realize that doesn't even make sense don't you? If a plastic gun isn't viable, it could never win no matter how much somebody got paid to shoot it. 

it doesn’t bother me if you believe that. the fact that everyone good who has a choice chooses a 2011 likely means a 2011 provides a significant competitive advantage. sure, a few elite shooter with talent, practice and deep pockets can overcome that advantage temporarily, but that is only because shooting is a fringe sport with a fairly shallow pool of elite competitors who have financial support.

Edited January 12, 2023 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

I know nothing about IDPA. What guns are popular in CO for IDPA? Are a wide variety of guns used, including many of the currently popular USPSA CO guns? Or is it dominated by expensive custom 2011s, as some here fear would happen if LO replaced CO in USPSA? 

if you don’t shoot idpa, you may not realize how much lower the talent bar is. it doesn’t really matter what is popular in idpa, because an A or M uspsa shooter will typically beat them with his actual IWB compact carry gun.

[rowdyb]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

it doesn’t bother me if you believe that. the fact that everyone good who has a choice chooses a 2011 lilely means a 2011 provides a significant competitive advantage. sure, a few elite shooter with talent, practice and deep pockets can overcome that advantage temporarily, but that is only because shooting is a fringe sport with a fairly shallow pool of elite competitors who have financial support.

This is true

[Boomstick303]

11 hours ago, Southpaw said:

Even more so if you set capacity for those divisions at around 19rds (either by lower mag length limit or gun+mag must fit box).

 

I think you keep LO at 141 mm mag size.  They can do whatever they want to CO mag capacity.  The best idea being make Production and CO the same round count at 15 rounds.  This would make CO and LO a little different.  This would also minimize the revolt when you move CO to 15 rounds.  If someone wants to maintain their 141 mm mag capacity they can shoot LO.

 

Something else that has not been discussed is maybe return CO to a division where you cannot use a light and LO you can use a light?  

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

 

Thanks.  I have really been getting tired of the arrogant "competitors" looking down their noses at "participants" and "players."

 

My entry fee is as good as Nils' and I am trying hard.  Just because I am not on the winners' podium does not mean I am not competing.

 

To be fair I do hear a lot of guys say things like "I'm just competing against myself"... "I'm just hear to have fun" or "I just want to get better at shooting"...."I'm here for the comradery"..."I don't care how I finish" Some variation of these things.  

 

I think a lot of these statements are just to protect our ego's, but at their core they're all saying I'm not here to compete, I'm just hear to participate. So if you ever say that stuff, don't get mad if you're lumped into that group. 

[RobW]

13 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

To be fair I do hear a lot of guys say things like "I'm just competing against myself"... "I'm just hear to have fun" or "I just want to get better at shooting"...."I'm here for the comradery"..."I don't care how I finish" Some variation of these things.  

 

For me, being realistic I know I am not going to win when I show up for the match. That doesn't mean I am not taking the competition seriously and trying my best to improve. Both things can be true at the same time.

[Jim Watson]

24 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

So if you ever say that stuff, don't get mad if you're lumped into that group. 

 

I don't say that stuff, and I think "I only compete against myself" just silly in a match with no fixed requirements.  

 

But I still find being "lumped into that group" to be insulting.

 

The strange thing is, I don't see deprecatory lumping on the range, just on the gun boards, mostly just THIS gun board.  The younger faster guys are generally supportive of us creaky old guys when the targets are hung. 

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

 

I don't say that stuff, and I think "I only compete against myself" just silly in a match with no fixed requirements.  

 

But I still find being "lumped into that group" to be insulting.

 

The strange thing is, I don't see deprecatory lumping on the range, just on the gun boards, mostly just THIS gun board.  The younger faster guys are generally supportive of us creaky old guys when the targets are hung. 

 

People on here specifically call you out as not a competitor? Or could they be making a general statement that you take to personally?

 

Just remember on the internet everyone is jumping to conclusions about you all the time. It doesn't just happen to you, I see GM's posting video's all the time and people will jump to tell them to stop looking at the magwell during their reload or some other thing they're doing wrong. It's happened to me with things I've posted on social media. Everyone knows 100% they are right and your are wrong. That's life. 

[motosapiens]

43 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

To be fair I do hear a lot of guys say things like "I'm just competing against myself"... "I'm just hear to have fun" or "I just want to get better at shooting"...."I'm here for the comradery"..."I don't care how I finish" Some variation of these things.  

 

I think a lot of these statements are just to protect our ego's, but at their core they're all saying I'm not here to compete, I'm just hear to participate. So if you ever say that stuff, don't get mad if you're lumped into that group. 

you dont have to be in contention for the win to be a serious competitor, which is good, because very very few people are in contention for the win. OTOH, everyone can improve, and reach a higher percentage of the division winner with some practice and effort. That's my goal..... to finish closer to the winner than I used to.

[Racinready300ex]

28 minutes ago, RobW said:

 

For me, being realistic I know I am not going to win when I show up for the match. That doesn't mean I am not taking the competition seriously and trying my best to improve. Both things can be true at the same time.

 

You don't have to be going to win the match to have the mindset of a competitor. I think fishbreath nailed it above. You may or may not be a competitor, only you really know what's in your head. 

 

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

you dont have to be in contention for the win to be a serious competitor, which is good, because very very few people are in contention for the win. OTOH, everyone can improve, and reach a higher percentage of the division winner with some practice and effort. That's my goal..... to finish closer to the winner than I used to.

 

That sounds like a competitor to me. My point was that some people say things to imply they don't care about the competition aspect of uspsa. Those people shouldn't be offended if they aren't looked at as competitors. 

 

 

[Jim Watson]

35 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

People on here specifically call you out as not a competitor? Or could they be making a general statement that you take to personally?

 

I avoid posting stuff that gets me lumped.

My performance would surely get me lumped by these geniuses, but my attitude is not.

[Bdh821]

16 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Is that the stock magwell?

No.  It's made by Tactical Development out of Nylon.  I bought my grip module naked without panels/magwell from sig store for $209! 

[Boomstick303]

5 minutes ago, Bdh821 said:

I bought my grip module naked without panels/magwell from sig store for $209

 

Ah Nice.  I noted the different Color and at a great price point.  I have been looking for another Module, so maybe that's the answer.

 

Thanks.