Limited Optics

[Kwontanamo]

1000 post!

[HesedTech]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

co is an excellent beginner division, and a great way to have fun while learning the sport,

True, but look who’s at the top of the Division, he certainly isn’t a beginner. 
 

19 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

So, I don't understand the constant push to attract new shooters when we can't even accommodate those we have now.

I don’t think it’s about attracting new shooters as much as it is staying up with what is being purchased in the market. Just look how many long time shooters have switch from both Production, Limited and probably Open into CO. 
 

CO is a great division with lots of competitive heat now. No participation awards for just showing up.

[Boomstick303]

25 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

So, I don't understand the constant push to attract new shooters when we can't even accommodate those we have now.

 

With the old President that was the push.  From my understanding his bonus was structured around growth.  I could be wrong on that.  

 

We do have to understand that there is always a need for new shooters to replace shooters that leave the sport all of the time.  What that balance is I have no idea.  Also just because your area has high participation does not mean that all do.  In our section we can shoot just about every Saturday and Sunday for 8-9 months out of the year, and most have room for more shooters.  Some matches are always full, but that is mostly due to the fact the are located with a half hour of the Major city in the Section.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

48 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Seems the rumors of USPSA's impending death are a bit premature.  All the L1 matches around here are sold out, usually with a pretty sizable wait list.  And there isn't any realistic way to increase frequency or capacity.  And, from what I understand, the National matches all sell out as well.  So, I don't understand the constant push to attract new shooters when we can't even accommodate those we have now.

 

Not every state or section has your problems.

 

It's also winter, the number of available locations obviously goes down making demand appear higher.

[ltdmstr]

31 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

I don’t think it’s about attracting new shooters as much as it is staying up with what is being purchased in the market. Just look how many long time shooters have switch from both Production, Limited and probably Open into CO. 
 

CO is a great division with lots of competitive heat now. No participation awards for just showing up.

 

Well, that was the point from the prior post I quoted.  And many others posted previously.  But, aside from that, I agree with what you wrote.  Lots or people are buying 9mm 2011s with dots.  They should be able to play in CO if they want to.  I just don't see the point of creating another division if it's also going to be minor pf and the only difference being that it allows SAO guns.

 

21 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

We do have to understand that there is always a need for new shooters to replace shooters that leave the sport all of the time.  What that balance is I have no idea.

 

Fair point.  But, I don't recall a time when they haven't been trying to attract new shooters.  Around here, we have so many new shooters, there are some significant downsides.  I don't want to get into that here because it's too far off topic.  But I'm willing to discuss offline or in a separate thread. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by ltdmstr

[motosapiens]

47 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

True, but look who’s at the top of the Division, he certainly isn’t a beginner. 

the champ in every pistol division is a true badass.

 

i think its just easier for noobs to learn the game in co. when u miss, its pretty obvious why, so people can learn to move and stage plan and shoot faster without having distractions like recoil, reloading, complicated aiming, etc…. once they learn that stuff, they’ll be way ahead in any other division.

 

it will be interesting to see if co keeps growing or peaks and slightly declines. im sure it will stay popular, but i think it’s probably close to the peak now.

 

remember when pcc was the new thing and everyone was shooting it? now it seems like most are over it. i don’t think that will happen to co, but it does seem that not everyone sticks with the newest fad.

[motosapiens]

26 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

  I just don't see the point of creating another division if it's also going to be minor pf and the only difference being that it allows SAO guns.

 

not just sao guns, but custom non-mass-produced guns too. maybe it will eventually get combined. with co, or split out into heavy hicap and light locap, but it makes sense to gather some data and see what happens first. will it really be a significant advantage? will everyone buy 9mm 2011s? who knows? but id rather find out without screwing up CO.

[2011BLDR]

2 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Seems the rumors of USPSA's impending death are a bit premature.  All the L1 matches around here are sold out, usually with a pretty sizable wait list.  And there isn't any realistic way to increase frequency or capacity.  And, from what I understand, the National matches all sell out as well.  So, I don't understand the constant push to attract new shooters when we can't even accommodate those we have now.

Match on the north side of town ( 5min from my house) sells out most of the time but MD's don't use both of their days every month lately (lack of set up crew= aging USPSA members+ young Tactical croup that are not USPSA members and range politics) Match on south side of town (40 MI one way for me ) struggles to get the 10 people minimum to hold the match, they have canceled both matches for the month numerus times, I have seen 3 consecutive months without a match @ that range... sometimes it leaves me with having to drive 105 miles one way to shoot 1-3 a month, it wasn't a big deal in the past but when gas is  high it turns in to a $150+ local 4 stage match real fast...

[Joe4d]

I firmly believe if Production had gone to a 140 or 126, load to capacity magazine rule we wouldnt be having this conversation,, and CO would be an afterthought..  Yeh people like dots, but IMO it was the 9mm ammo production style gun and full capacity that made it boom in popularity.

Under current conditions major is dwindling.. however I do see a very likely scenario that would bring it back.. A return to widespread mag limit laws..
1911's were pretty plain jane,, mostly milspec style until the 10 round law came around. Yeh  custom jobs sure, and custom builders, but you wernt  walking in a gun store, buying an off the shelf, bump beavertail, extended safety full length guide rod,, or even good reliable 8 round mags until then. Suddenly every gun company was making a tricked out 1911 45.  Folks figured if you could only have 10 rounds they might as well be big ones.

Far as percents, I imagine LO will just cannibalize the other divisions.  Some steel frame CO guys will move,, Some open guys will switch to slide mount and be able to load normal 9mm. Few limited guys will get optic mounts.
I dont see it "growing" the sport...

 

[ltdmstr]

25 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

however I do see a very likely scenario that would bring it back.. A return to widespread mag limit laws..

 

Mag limit laws will be gone in the not too distant future.  No way those are going to survive after Bruen.  IL passed an "assualt weapon" and magazine ban a little over a week ago, and there's already a TRO issued blocking it, and about a half dozen other suits filed in state and federal court.  I'm not going to go on in detail because it's OT, but bottom line is it's only a matter of time before they're gone.

 

Getting back to production, I do think if the rules were changed to allow 140 mags and some minor modifications, you'd get a much larger turnout.

[Rich406]

34 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

I firmly believe if Production had gone to a 140 or 126, load to capacity magazine rule we wouldnt be having this conversation,, and CO would be an afterthought..  Yeh people like dots, but IMO it was the 9mm ammo production style gun and full capacity that made it boom in popularity.

Under current conditions major is dwindling.. however I do see a very likely scenario that would bring it back.. A return to widespread mag limit laws..
1911's were pretty plain jane,, mostly milspec style until the 10 round law came around. Yeh  custom jobs sure, and custom builders, but you wernt  walking in a gun store, buying an off the shelf, bump beavertail, extended safety full length guide rod,, or even good reliable 8 round mags until then. Suddenly every gun company was making a tricked out 1911 45.  Folks figured if you could only have 10 rounds they might as well be big ones.

Far as percents, I imagine LO will just cannibalize the other divisions.  Some steel frame CO guys will move,, Some open guys will switch to slide mount and be able to load normal 9mm. Few limited guys will get optic mounts.
I dont see it "growing" the sport...

 

 

I gotta say, I pretty much disagree with everything you’ve just said…..

Just like you don’t see irons on rifles much anymore, in 10 years dots will be the default on handguns as well. We’re well on the way there now.

 

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 minutes ago, Rich406 said:

Just like you don’t see irons on rifles much anymore, in 10 years dots will be the default on handguns as well. We’re well on the way there now.

 

It's almost like willful blindness

[ltdmstr]

1 hour ago, Rich406 said:

Just like you don’t see irons on rifles much anymore, in 10 years dots will be the default on handguns as well. We’re well on the way there now.

 

Um, most rifles I see, at least those intended for >100 yards, have scopes not dots.  And the stuff that's intended for close range with a dot all have BUIS, for good reason.

[Rich406]

1 minute ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Um, most rifles I see, at least those intended for >100 yards, have scopes not dots.  And the stuff that's intended for close range with a dot all have BUIS, for good reason.

So you’re saying that most rifles don’t use irons as their primary sighting system? Thanks for proving my point. 

[ltdmstr]

17 minutes ago, Rich406 said:

So you’re saying that most rifles don’t use irons as their primary sighting system? Thanks for proving my point. 

Actually, what you just wrote contradicts your own point.  But whatever.  Pretty much not relevant to LO anyway.

[Joe4d]

and everyone was running through multiple reddots that kept failing.,, People were shooting CO despite  the dots not because of.  USPSA went out of their way to mandate dot because they knew a bunch of people would just not use them and it wouldnt fit the plan if people won without dots.
Seems everyone had to have 3 dots,, 1 on the gun, one as a spare and one going back and forth to the mfg for replacement/repair.
Does seem to be less chatter about the failures now. Good analogy with the rifle scopes though.. They went from delicate gimmicks that couldnt be trusted through an era of scopes with BUIS,, to eventually becoming reliable enough to depend on. Most of my rifles dont have sights.
I imagine pistol dots will get there eventually,,  just arnt there yet. 

[zombywoof]

11 hours ago, Joe4d said:

I firmly believe if Production had gone to a 140 or 126, load to capacity magazine rule we wouldnt be having this conversation,, and CO would be an afterthought..  Yeh people like dots, but IMO it was the 9mm ammo production style gun and full capacity that made it boom in popularity.

I'm in a ban state. Everyone shoots dots.

 

Here is the breakdown to our January indoor money match. Most of the production shooters were new.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

No doubt the numbers are not growing for limited. 
It’s gonna suck if this LO takes away from limited. 
they could be adding it’s demise. 

[RJH]

32 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

No doubt the numbers are not growing for limited. 
It’s gonna suck if this LO takes away from limited. 
they could be adding it’s demise. 

Limited is dying anyway. And it will continue to do so. The only thing that will help limited is doing away with major, and I'm not even sure that's enough to help it much. And anytime that is brought up there's much wailing and crying and calling people little girls, basically people are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

[Racinready300ex]

27 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

No doubt the numbers are not growing for limited. 
It’s gonna suck if this LO takes away from limited. 
they could be adding it’s demise. 

 

Is that all bad though? People are clearly loosing interest in Limited already. If those people find LO interesting enough to turn out and shoot it isn't that moving in a good direction? Are those limited shooters leaving the sport or leaving the division? 

 

 

 

[dmshozer1]

On 1/21/2023 at 10:16 PM, HesedTech said:

I think you just want to argue this, and you well know CZ made a competition Production gun based on the successful TS competition gun and not a “carry gun.”  Also I owned a first gen TS and it had an amazing trigger for an out of the box gun. Sold it to shoot Production many years ago. 
 

You also know most owners , polish, change the trigger, hammer, springs, extended FP and possibly more. All of this is far outside your “CZ says it needs to be” statement, and such it is in competitive sports of any kind. 
 

Is the gun safe? Yes, as any competition gun is. 
 

Chill a bit and enjoy the day. 
 

 

November 10, 2020, indoor range, Penfield NY,

CZ, extended firing pin, hammer down start.

Shooter dropped gun, KILLED THE RO!!!!!!!!!!!

[pskys2]

19 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Is that all bad though? People are clearly loosing interest in Limited already. If those people find LO interesting enough to turn out and shoot it isn't that moving in a good direction? Are those limited shooters leaving the sport or leaving the division? 

 

 

 

Good point, majority want high cap, optic, reasonably priced ammo and gun. Co and Lo, with or without major, may both surpass open.  Doesn't mean we can't still have and enjoy other platforms.  I'm partial to the brt's, but open to new ideas.  A lot has changed since I started in 1978.

[motosapiens]

32 minutes ago, RJH said:

Limited is dying anyway. And it will continue to do so. The only thing that will help limited is doing away with major, and I'm not even sure that's enough to help it much. And anytime that is brought up there's much wailing and crying and calling people little girls, basically people are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Limited is still the 2nd most popular division. That doesn't sound like dying to me. It certainly doesn't need any *saving*.  I predict you'll see many people going back to limited after they get bored of the new thing.

[motosapiens]

10 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

November 10, 2020, indoor range, Penfield NY,

CZ, extended firing pin, hammer down start.

Shooter dropped gun, KILLED THE RO!!!!!!!!!!!

there is no doubt that dropping loaded guns is a bad and dangerous idea.

[ChuckS]

Just now, motosapiens said:

there is no doubt that dropping loaded guns is a bad and dangerous idea.

True and not the subject of this thread. We shall not go down this road in this thread...