motosapiens Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 Just now, shred said: Didn't somebody that knows say CZ ships more Shadow 2's in a year than there are USPSA members total? that wouldn't surprise me. My local hardware store had a shadow 2 in the case, and last year I stayed with a friend of a friend in salt lake who has never competed but owns a shadow 2. Of course alot of staccatos and atlases are going to non-competitors too. no idea what their #s are tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 25 minutes ago, motosapiens said: that wouldn't surprise me. My local hardware store had a shadow 2 in the case, and last year I stayed with a friend of a friend in salt lake who has never competed but owns a shadow 2. Of course alot of staccatos and atlases are going to non-competitors too. no idea what their #s are tho. ATF conveniently publishes that data 2 years out of date. In 2020 Atlas made 615 9mm/38-caliber pistols total. STI/Stacatto; 15,637. I'm fairly confident Stacatto is not pushing USPSA to create LO. 247,491 imported from all makers in the Czech Republic, but that's mostly CZs. Total handguns imported & manufactured in 2020 looks like about 5 million. USPSA, IPSC, IDPA, Steel Challenge and all other forms of competition are barely a pimple on the butt of the overall handgun market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 19 minutes ago, motosapiens said: that wouldn't surprise me. My local hardware store had a shadow 2 in the case, and last year I stayed with a friend of a friend in salt lake who has never competed but owns a shadow 2. Of course alot of staccatos and atlases are going to non-competitors too. no idea what their #s are tho. You're exactly right. I'm in a FB group for Atlas and the majority of their clients are buying them just for plinking. Lots of LE are buying/carrying Staccatos these days and 99% will never shoot a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazhi Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 38 minutes ago, motosapiens said: so limited optics doesn't bother me, but changing CO into another 2011 division bothers me alot. I hope this is the course USPSA will take. At least for now. Maybe in a few years, they merge LO into CO anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 3 hours ago, SufferInSilence said: It’s controversial cause it’s a bunch of cry babies making that way. likely the same kind of guys that don’t setup for matches, go to working parties, bust out after a match without helping tear down, and are stuck in B/C class cause they won’t train their way out of it. Guys whose egos are so defined by results at some beer league level one Tuesday night match that they take to the internet to crap on every subject matter they can’t overcome. Wont step up and be a part of the leadership or solution but cry about every decision made by others. Just saying, most people need to check themselves before they blab so much. wow, paint with a pretty broad brush much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SufferInSilence Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 17 minutes ago, ddc said: wow, paint with a pretty broad brush much? Yup, but true. Triggered..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 5 hours ago, SufferInSilence said: Wont step up an be a part of the leadership or solution but cry about every decision made by others. Whatever you do at your club has zero weight here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 5 hours ago, SufferInSilence said: likely the same kind of guys that don’t setup for matches, go to working parties, bust out after a match without helping tear down, and are stuck in B/C class cause they won’t train their way out of it. Yeah that's us alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said: Whatever you do at your club has zero weight here. i disagree. i for sure assign more credibility to the posts of people i know are involved as md’s, officials, stage builders, etc… i assign less credibility to posts from people who don’t even shoot uspsa anymore. some people only want to whine and be part of the problem. others want to shoot and improve and be part of the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SufferInSilence Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 23 minutes ago, motosapiens said: some people only want to whine and be part of the problem. others want to shoot and improve and be part of the solution. exactly. Chimpo: “Whatever you do at your club has zero weight here” Maybe, but whatever you do here, has zero weight in the game. So, all of y’all could have saved 30 pages of pizzing and crying and take the survey where it does matter. (Link below) Give this a listen: https://bit.ly/3WHZR58 Results of the survey and feedback will be presented during the January 28-29th in-person board meeting. Additional questions and feedback should be directed to the entire board at: board@uspsa.org USPSA Rules Committee Report : https://bit.ly/3I8iA5G USPSA Rules Audit : https://bit.ly/3WRRdBg SCSA Rules Audit : https://bit.ly/3GorAlP Limited 10 Equipment Change Proposal :https://bit.ly/3WRAr4Y Equipment Change Proposal : https://bit.ly/3WwD0Ka Rules Audit - Multigun Dec 2022 : https://bit.ly/3PYWQLy USPSA Limited Optics Provisional Divisional Rules : https://bit.ly/3jCNBV6 Feedback can be submitted here : https://uspsa.org/surveys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Chimpo Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 15 minutes ago, SufferInSilence said: exactly. Chimpo: “Whatever you do at your club has zero weight here” Maybe, but whatever you do here, has zero weight in the game. So, all of y’all could have saved 30 pages of pizzing and crying and take the survey where it does matter. (Link below) Give this a listen: https://bit.ly/3WHZR58 Results of the survey and feedback will be presented during the January 28-29th in-person board meeting. Additional questions and feedback should be directed to the entire board at: board@uspsa.org USPSA Rules Committee Report : https://bit.ly/3I8iA5G USPSA Rules Audit : https://bit.ly/3WRRdBg SCSA Rules Audit : https://bit.ly/3GorAlP Limited 10 Equipment Change Proposal :https://bit.ly/3WRAr4Y Equipment Change Proposal : https://bit.ly/3WwD0Ka Rules Audit - Multigun Dec 2022 : https://bit.ly/3PYWQLy USPSA Limited Optics Provisional Divisional Rules : https://bit.ly/3jCNBV6 Feedback can be submitted here : https://uspsa.org/surveys Gee thanks. Already did all that a week ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 10 hours ago, Dazhi said: I hope this is the course USPSA will take. At least for now. Maybe in a few years, they merge LO into CO anyways. I agree with you. I think we will find that 2011s will not be the only guns used in LO after a year or two. I think it will be a healthy mix of all kinds of guns. Allowing Magwells will draw more people into LO than people realize I believe. If it is a mix of guns it somewhat proves that merging CO and LO makes sense. If LO turns out to be exclusively 2011 then keep them both. I do see a place for Minor SA guns that is not Open. But that is my opinion and others are welcomed to theirs as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 10 hours ago, shred said: In 2020 Atlas made 615 9mm/38-caliber pistols total. That is $3,444,000 if the average Atlas was sold at a cost of $5,600. 10 hours ago, shred said: STI/Stacatto; 15,637 That is $35,183,250 if that average STI/Stacatto was sold at $2,250 Pretty crazy when you break those numbers down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chillywig Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: That is $3,444,000 if the average Atlas was sold at a cost of $5,600. I seen Adam walking around town the other day... DisgustingLinedIberianbarbel-mobile.mp4 Edited January 9, 2023 by Chillywig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Climbhard Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 16 hours ago, Boomstick303 said: I do see a place for Minor SA guns that is not Open. But that is my opinion and others are welcomed to theirs as well. That division is called Limited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, Climbhard said: That division is called Limited Funny thing about this. Everyone that keeps whining that about SA guns do not belong in CO, are also the ones that say anyone that has any brains does not shoot minor in Limited or Open. You know why. Because it makes zero sense to shoot minor in any division that allows Major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 19 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: Funny thing about this. Everyone that keeps whining that about SA guns do not belong in CO, are also the ones that say anyone that has any brains does not shoot minor in Limited or Open. You know why. Because it makes zero sense to shoot minor in any division that allows Major. It also makes zero sense to buy an expensive custom gun and use it to shoot a sissies' and girls' caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 28 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: You know why. Because it makes zero sense to shoot minor in any division that allows Major. You should try Revolver and get back with us on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 Just now, Bosshoss said: You should try Revolver and get back with us on that. Why would I want to punch myself in the D!(K?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 10 minutes ago, motosapiens said: It also makes zero sense to buy an expensive custom gun and use it to shoot a sissies' and girls' caliber. One. What does it matter to you what I shoot or how much I spend on it? Two. Coming from a guy who shoots a CZ in CO. You cant make that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 10 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: Why would I want to punch myself in the D!(K?? To make everyone laugh, that's why! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 7 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said: To make everyone laugh, that's why! Kind of like watching people shoot revolver???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Boomstick303 said: One. What does it matter to you what I shoot or how much I spend on it? Two. Coming from a guy who shoots a CZ in CO. You cant make that up. one. it matters exactly as much as whether people shoot open minor, or revo. Not at all, except for comic relief. two, the cz is a reasonably priced off-the shelf gun. cost about $100-200 more than a legion x5 and a trigger kit. three, CO is so last year..... for 2023 I'm going back to limited, as long as I can still make out the sights, lol. Edited January 9, 2023 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCB Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 (edited) Having Production and CO both go to 15 seems good especially if it’s more in line with the international rules. LO for folks that want to shoot a fully tricked out 9mm with a dot on the slide, neat. I’d probably mess around in all those divisions a bit as that seems like they would more mirror what people are actually carrying and training with on the practical side these days. But I’m a Single Stack guy and just want to keep all the reloads to myself. Edited January 9, 2023 by TCB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 3 minutes ago, TCB said: Having Production and CO both go to 15 seems good especially if it’s more in line with the international rules. LO for folks that want to shoot a fully tricked out 9mm with a dot on the slide, neat. I’d probably mess around in all those divisions a bit as that seems like they would more mirror what people are actually carrying and training with on the practical side these days. But I’m a Single Stack guy and just want to keep all the reloads to myself. the more I think about this, and read what other people think, the more I think it would actually make sense to have an equipment ruleset for CO that was the same as production, including a 15 round limit, a weight limit in the 45-50-oz range, non-race holsters, no magwells, no SAO triggers, etc.... it would also make sense to have an equipment ruleset for limited optics that mostly matches limited (with the likely exception of major scoring, because that will make staccato owners and little girls cry many soft wet tears). 140 rd mags, race holsters, magwells, slide rackers, possibly frame mount dots allowed (i think this would broaden the appeal without making it a requirement). I think there would be much weeping and wailing trying to put the genie back in the bottle regarding CO weight limit and 140 rd mags......... unless there was a new division like lim optics where those things were legal. Just thinking out loud here, but I think both optics divisions would be interesting in different ways, and of course those of us with actual *practical* guns could choose either division based on the rest of our gear preferences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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