Is there any value in taking the CRO course for a competitor?

[UpYoursPal]

My local club is hosting a CRO seminar in a few months.  I have been an RO for a little over 2 years now, and I've come to recognize some of the competition benefits that come from really knowing the rule book.  Most of that being "knowing what you can get away with" and "knowing when to argue for a call".  I was also able to act as a stage RO for a level 2 match, which I probably won't do again.

 

That being said, I'm not an MD nor do I really have any interest in performing those kinds of functions.  However, I do like to help with stage design from time to time.  Knowing that, is there really any benefit for your average serious competitor?

Edited January 19, 2022 by UpYoursPal

[broadside72]

Sounds like it isn't worth it for you. 

[driver8M3]

38 minutes ago, UpYoursPal said:

My local club is hosting a CRO seminar in a few months.  I have been an RO for a little over 2 years now, and I've come to recognize some of the competition benefits that come from really knowing the rule book.  Most of that being "knowing what you can get away with" and "knowing when to argue for a call".  I was also able to act as a stage RO for a level 2 match, which I probably won't do again.

 

That being said, I'm not an MD nor do I really have any interest in performing those kinds of functions.

 

"I was also able to act as a stage RO for a level 2 match, which I probably won't do again."

Why not?

 

"That being said, I'm not an MD nor do I really have any interest in performing those kinds of functions."

You might not have any interest in those things now, but it's possible you will in the future.

 

 

 

 

[UpYoursPal]

8 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

 

"I was also able to act as a stage RO for a level 2 match, which I probably won't do again."

Why not?

 

 

 

Two days of standing in the sun and resetting a lot of steel was not very fun.  I was happy to volunteer and make sure that things stayed running on time, but ultimately it wasn't worth it

 

Quote

"That being said, I'm not an MD nor do I really have any interest in performing those kinds of functions."

You might not have any interest in those things now, but it's possible you will in the future.

This is a good point that I hadn't considered.

Edited January 19, 2022 by UpYoursPal

[Sarge]

As a VERY general rule most “serious “ competitors don’t often RO much at all. Jack of all trades, master of none  applies very well to USPSA.

  Even at locals you will often realize you are on deck and have to scurry to hand off the timer. Hard to focus.

 At Majors you will shoot on staff day with a bunch of us guys who are more worried where we are eating after the match than we are about winning. So that would suck for a hardcore competitor.

 I have been working majors for 10-11 years and I enjoy seeing folks and becoming very knowledgeable of the rules as a CRO. I am also a local MD, State match MD as well as a past Area match MD. I love helping MD’s as well as shooters but as a result my percentage has not budged in the last several seasons. But I’m happy

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, Sarge said:

 At Majors you will shoot on staff day with a bunch of us guys who are more worried where we are eating after the match than we are about winning. So that would suck for a hardcore competitor.

 

When I have worked nationals or A1, I have always squadded with other serious shooters who are trying to perform their best. Some of the matches here like oregon state, or A1 have pretty attractive staff compensation packages, and they go out of their way to make the staff match run the same as the main match, so there are frequently M and even GM level shooters working (and often a few national-level shooters that shoot early with staff so they can make the main match at some area match).

[Batmo]

I've been an RO for the past 5 years and have worked both local matches and level 2.  I feel it's my way of helping support USPSA and the two local clubs where I shoot.

If a CRO seminar became available in my area I would more then likely take it.  We can't all be just shooters...we need RO's and CRO's for the sport to continue.

 

[motosapiens]

59 minutes ago, Batmo said:

We can't all be just shooters...we need RO's and CRO's for the sport to continue.

 

This is certainly true, and desire to help out was what motivated me initially to volunteer. The first few matches were kind of annoying, and I didn't know anyone, but I was starting to meet people, and I figured it was important for me to do my part.  But after a couple big matches (2 nationals and 2 A1) I started to know more people, and I started taking it as a challenge when working a stage to make sure nothing went wrong. No reshoots because of RO mistakes, fair situation for all competitors, accurate scoring, quick and efficient and polite administration, etc.  After that I really started enjoying working matches, and I didn't see it as a burden anymore.

 

It's still hard work, but bigger matches also tend to make it worthwhile in terms of free entry, travel/housing (or stipend), food, etc... As a bonus, when I go to a match as a consumer now, I feel like I have all the time in the world, so I get more enjoyment out of the matches I *don't* work too.

 

I get that not everyone has the time to do that (or the interest), but perhaps the OP should consider at some point working an area match, and taking some ownership of his stage, and see if it changes anything. Maybe I'm just weird. If someone just really isn't into working matches, I wouldn't pressure them into doing it except when their club hosts a big match, and then I think pretty much everyone otta help out some way or another.

Edited January 20, 2022 by motosapiens

[waktasz]

Yes, obsolutely. 

So many ROs at majors and even nationals don't know anything,  it's imperitive that you are able to successfully prove your point whenever necessary through superior knowledge of the rulebook (and bullying)

[Old3GNR]

Back in the day I was shooting every weekend and frequently was an RO.  I took the course to improve my RO knowledge.  I never expected to gain a competitive advantage and did not experience one.

[shred]

The CRO book has (when I took it anyway a few years back) a lot of good info on stage design in it.

 

But, they don't really teach that anymore, since stage design is something some people apparently just can't be taught.  The actual class focused on how to run a stage at a major match.  Even if you never plan to work a major, some of the bulletproofing and 'goofy things a competitor might do' come in handy for stage designing.

 

 

[Braxton1]

I went to the CRO "Boot Camp" that was de rigueur a few years back.  Like Shred said, those were all about bulletproofing, predicting "goofy stuff", and managing the stage.  We did zero stage design work, except for tweaking stages on the ground.  We did a lot of work on "What would your decision be if you were called to serve on the Arbitration Committee in this scenario?".

 

Some friends went the previous year, and their course was ALL about Stage Design.  They took a Rulebook exam, but their "practical exam" was to submit a Field Course and a Speed Shoot/Standards that was "Classifier-quality".

 

I am not a stage designer, having done only 3 in my 35 year career that were presented at State Matches.  The Boot Camp format was more of what I was looking for, so it worked out for me.  I'd love to know what's being taught now....

[JodiH]

The current CRO class seminar primarily focuses on the role a CRO takes to manage a stage at a match and there are some arbitration exercises (students form groups and act as the arb committee).  Students also design one stage and we use 3D stage builder kits to examine and troubleshoot those stages in the classroom and then select a few to actually build on the range.  The stages that are built are examined for problems and we also go over strategies for running those stages as ROs.  And of course the class shoots the stages.

 

The original version of the CRO class was all stage design, but that didn't train CROs to do the job needed for major matches which is why the class has changed.

[ima45dv8]

When I went to the CRO course about '93 I was an active competitor and never dreamed of being one of those old guys running matches. I also got assigned to pick up the instructors (2 classes that weekend, RO and CRO) at the airport and hang around as their escort for the weekend (saved the cost of a rental car). Perry Wilson who just recently passed did the L1 course and John Hurt did our L2 CRO course. Both were so nice and such good guys to be around. 

 

I had anticipated getting the Ultra Ninja-level, double-naught secret skills for running shooters and stages, you know, the ones that hadn't been taught in the L1 class probably due to time constraints (!).

 

It turned out to be a course in stage design, arbitrations, and running a stage well.

That turned out to be a very valuable investment for me later on.

 

Those classes aren't offered everywhere. If you get a chance to go. . .go.

[vluc]

Always worth it, minor investment of time and money. My RO training was also Perry Wilson, my CRO was John Amidon.  Actually working matches at the local, section and area level taught me much, and the people you meet become invaluable in what you learn from them by watching them breakdown stages as well as talking to them (after their stage - never interrupt during).  That and it's always a pleasure to be remembered by shooters that you've run over the years (both top shooters and us no talent middle of the road folks).

[pjb45]

• During my first CRO class the emphasis was on keeping the stage moving. 
  • My friends who preceded me in getting their CRO cert said the emphasis was on stage design.
• My first class did a stage on the last day for analyses.
• I attended part of a second CRO class that was butted to a Multigun rules class. 
• Same emphasis on keep the stage on time; scenario-----shooter objects, RO called and renders decision, Shooter disagrees ask for CRO opinion, if CRO agrees with shooter so be it, if disagrees and shooter not satisfied-call range manager, pull the target if necessary. 
• Don't fall behind.

With emphasis on keep the match on schedule and very little on all the rules just those rules which pop up the most, I am not sure of how it would advantage a shooter.

[broadside72]

If you are not ever going to work a major match or really get into stage design, then going through the course is less important than just learning the rules yourself. You don't need to be a CRO to argue your point and prove yourself correct at a match. You just need to be able to defend your POV.