dq for bouncing a round off a metal roof and over the berm?

[davsco]

shooter standing behind roughly shoulder-level metal roof that you could shoot over or could run around and shoot from the side with no possible interference.  bounces a few rounds off the roof that presumably went over the berm based on the low impact angle and that there was no visible hits on targets, ground in shooting area or berm.

 

i'm not seeing anything that specifically makes this a dq though in 10.3.1 we have "commits a safety infraction."

 

10.4.1 notes a shot over the berm but says that going over the berm has to be identified in the WSB by the md as unsafe.  really?

 

10.4.1 also says that a legit shot at a target which then goes over the berm is not unsafe/dq.  is it a legit shot if it is bounced off a prop that could have been avoided.

 

it HAS to be a dq, right, but there are no specific examples/wording that i can find in the rules?

 

if not a dq, how to make it a dq going forward, just declare hitting the roof a 'prohibited action?'  frankly, hitting the top of a 2x4 wood wall could have the same effect with a super low shooting angle, so it's not necessarily the "metal" aspect but metal prob has a much higher probability of deflection.

[RadarTech]

We had this happen at a major a few years ago.. well almost.. competitor came to us and said I’m going to do this.. but if the angle is right the round might go over the berm.. 

 

I used 3.2.3 and modified the WSB as it was a safety issue…

in your case if the match hasn’t started— just fix it.. if it has started, declare forbidden action and force a reshoot..

 

[shred]

I don't think the first part of 10.4.1 means the MD has to declare shots over the berm or backstops as DQ's, just shots in other directions "or in directions the MD declares to be bad".

 

You can always use 10.5 "including but not limited to...", but it's a bit lazy to do that, although 10.5.17 is somewhat close and is in 10.5

 

 

 

 

[my00wrx1]

Have you considered modifying the stage or props instead?

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, my00wrx1 said:

Have you considered modifying the stage or props instead?

This sounds reasonable.  

[Southpaw]

4 hours ago, shred said:

I don't think the first part of 10.4.1 means the MD has to declare shots over the berm or backstops as DQ's, just shots in other directions "or in directions the MD declares to be bad".

 

Yup.  They really should embrace the Oxford comma

[PatJones]

If someone shoots a popper and the bullet gets deflected over a berm is it a DQ? The shot didn't go over the berm, a ricochet did.

 

I believe what you describe is a stage construction issue, not the fault of the shooter.

[davsco]

8 hours ago, my00wrx1 said:

Have you considered modifying the stage or props instead?

We weren't the first squad to shoot that stage.  And again it was avoidable by moving to the side vs taking the tight shot over it.

[davsco]

42 minutes ago, PatJones said:

If someone shoots a popper and the bullet gets deflected over a berm is it a DQ? The shot didn't go over the berm, a ricochet did.

 

i get that there will be unavoidable ricochets off of and around targets, but here, shooters aren't even close to hitting the target first.

[motosapiens]

13 minutes ago, davsco said:

i get that there will be unavoidable ricochets off of and around targets, but here, shooters aren't even close to hitting the target first.

 

I would say no DQ. looks like poor design to me. it's not that unusual for people to hit props when 'legitimately' firing shots at a target. Stage designers and builders need to take that into account.

[Sarge]

9 hours ago, shred said:

I don't think the first part of 10.4.1 means the MD has to declare shots over the berm or backstops as DQ's, just shots in other directions "or in directions the MD declares to be bad".

 

Agreed. That’s exactly what it means.

[Sarge]

2 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Agreed. 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Sarge

[RJH]

No DQ. Stage design issue. Can't DQ someone for shooting a prop when shooting at a  target in USPSA (although I have seen that bs in 3 gun)

 

Also don't think something "HAS" to be a DQ just cause you don't like it

[IHAVEGAS]

Hmmm, wondering if the ricochet off of the water closet shot Kevin Costner made in Tin Cup has a parallel in USPSA?

Edited November 27, 2021 by IHAVEGAS

[George Jones]

The use of stage props to remove the problem is always the best option.

A Forbidden Action should be the last resort when no other solution is available.

Regardless, any shooter who previously shot from the problem position (even if they didn't hit the roof in this case) would be required to reshoot the stage.

[davsco]

29 minutes ago, RJH said:

Also don't think something "HAS" to be a DQ just cause you don't like it

hopefully No One 'likes' rounds leaving the range...

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, davsco said:

hopefully No One 'likes' rounds leaving the range...

 

I don't think anyone does, but you can't penalize a shooter for bad stage design. Maybe the stage designer should be dqed

[shred]

Well, at the end of the day, the law and lawyers are going to come after the person that pulled the trigger if said shot goes somewhere it shouldn't.   Then they come after the match & range, but primary responsibility is going to be on the shooter unless the range or match "made" them shoot like that.

 

Does that fall under "cause the sport to come into disrepute??"   

 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

 

13 hours ago, shred said:

Well, at the end of the day, the law and lawyers are going to come after the person that pulled the trigger if said shot goes somewhere it shouldn't.   Then they come after the match & range, but primary responsibility is going to be on the shooter unless the range or match "made" them shoot like that.

 

Does that fall under "cause the sport to come into disrepute??"   

 

But in that case I would just say 

Alex Baldwin !

[broadside72]

WTH are you doing shooting over a metal roof to begin with? 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

WTH are you doing shooting over a metal roof to begin with? 

Can I see a target over it? If the answer is yes then I might shoot over it.  MD/RM/ROs need to remember freestyle is a tenet of this sport

[broadside72]

47 minutes ago, RJH said:

Can I see a target over it? If the answer is yes then I might shoot over it.  MD/RM/ROs need to remember freestyle is a tenet of this sport

 

I meant that from a stage designer POV. Poor wording on my part.

[obsessiveshooter]

There is no way I'd ever accept a DQ for where my ricochet went. If the shooter is missing low and hitting that stage prop that shouldn't be there, your going to DQ him for the bullet ricocheting high?

If the stage designer gives a shooter a legal view of a target, he should expect that somebody is going shoot from that position.  If it's dumb to shoot from that spot, its likely going to be a less-experienced shooter who uses that spot.

The failure is on stage design, not the shooter.   

[outerlimits]

uspsa is too wrapped up in pistol again.  i can remember several uspsa multigun nationals and a ton of outlaw 3 gun shooting off roofs, car hoods, car trunks, other stuff.

[71Commander]

Bad design. Declaring it a "Forbidden action" is the way to go.