If they recognized it, would you shoot it ?

[hdgun]

Rim fire revolver should be in on its own 

[mwx40x40]

I’m in. Been running 617 in SC for a while now 

[old558]

I'm in A118087

[Darqusoull13]

As a match director, NO. Numbers will never be there. Focus on getting Revolver to have more than 3 shooters across the already unfilled 2 divisions at a 300+ entry Area match. 

A4 Scores

This coming from a MD that already put Revo Trophies for both Wheel gun divisions and enough prizes for every shooter that shot the less attended divisions (ISR, OSR, PROD, LTD, SS) to receive a significant prize. Believe me, I WANT people shooting as many divisions as possible. It increases competition and makes everyone better. 

@MWP I'd like to know how you'd grow Revo at Area and Section matches. It would help me justify adding the trophies next year. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Darqusoull13

[revolver45]

5 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

As a match director, NO. Numbers will never be there. Focus on getting Revolver to have more than 3 shooters across the already unfilled 2 divisions at a 300+ entry Area match. 

A4 Scores

This coming from a MD that already put Revo Trophies for both Wheel gun divisions and enough prizes for every shooter that shot the less attended divisions (ISR, OSR, PROD, LTD, SS) to receive a significant prize. Believe me, I WANT people shooting as many divisions as possible. It increases competition and makes everyone better. 

@MWP I'd like to know how you'd grow Revo at Area and Section matches. It would help me justify adding the trophies next year. 

All of the revolver shooters I talk to in my area care less about trophies and more about competing against each other in their own division. 

[Darqusoull13]

26 minutes ago, revolver45 said:

All of the revolver shooters I talk to in my area care less about trophies and more about competing against each other in their own division. 

So HOW do you get them to sign up and shoot? Help me help you 

 

[DS-10-SPEED]

6 hours ago, revolver45 said:

All of the revolver shooters I talk to in my area care less about trophies and more about competing against each other in their own division. 

I agree, who cares about trophies, the only thing I care about is the print out of all the shooters in my division to see where I stand. As for prizes, I would suggest that prizes only be given if a certain set number of participants for that division has been reached, say 10 or more.

 

Since I am doing less and less center fire shooting because of shoulder arthritis (I can't do holster draw any more) I won't be doing Steel Challenge any more unless I can do .22 revolver divisions because it's the only gun I shoot these days. I really don't like being put together with super fast semi-auto guys.

Edited July 27, 2021 by DS-10-SPEED
correct text

[revolver45]

17 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

So HOW do you get them to sign up and shoot? Help me help you 

 

We shoot SC (all 8 stages) once a month at my club. I average 60 guns. Usually, 14 to 18 are revolver shooters. (Other clubs in our area (RI/CT) shoot SC as but 4 to 6 stages averaging 30 to 40 shooters). We started asking around, to see if there was any interest in revolver shooters competing against each other in the rimfire classes and the response was overwhelming. That's what started the post on this forum. I don't think it's a matter of how, I think it's a matter of build it and they will come. Based on the responses to this and the other forums we asked, it may be time to try it out. 

[Darqusoull13]

1 hour ago, DS-10-SPEED said:

I agree, who cares about trophies, the only thing I care about is the print out of all the shooters in my division to see where I stand. As for prizes, I would suggest that prizes only be given if a certain set number of participants for that division has been reached, say 10 or more.

 

Since I am doing less and less center fire shooting because of shoulder arthritis (I can't do holster draw any more) I won't be doing Steel Challenge any more unless I can do .22 revolver divisions. I really don't like being put together with super fast semi-auto guys.

@revolver45 and @DS-10-SPEED

I think we are talking about 2 different questions. We had 3 people over 5 entries out of 300+ entries in the Area 4 Steel Challenge Championship. WSSC had ~640 entries with 28 revolver entries. Quantitatively there's no reason for us to add 2 more revolver divisions for those same 3 people in our area to shoot when I can focus on growing the match in other divisions. 

So to each of you, how do you propose to convince the organization and large area / section match directors it's worth the time and energy to pursue this? The "If you build it they will come" didn't happen at Area 4. One of those shooters literally borrowed 2 revolvers to try and game trophies.  

Is it REALLY a competition if there's 3 shooters?

Are you personally going to sign up for Area matches and travel?

Will you be promoting the match to other revolver shooters to justify the division? 

Are you willing to say if there aren't 20 RF_ISR and 20 RF_OSR shooters then the division doesn't make and you wont be scored? 

What level of personal investment do you plan to put into this to grow your division? 

If you don't care about trophies, only about seeing your name on the scores, what is keeping you from entering RFPI and RFPO with revolvers? The "I wont shoot unless you add this division" mentality doesn't make sense. 

 

[revolver45]

4 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

@revolver45 and @DS-10-SPEED

I think we are talking about 2 different questions. We had 3 people over 5 entries out of 300+ entries in the Area 4 Steel Challenge Championship. WSSC had ~640 entries with 28 revolver entries. Quantitatively there's no reason for us to add 2 more revolver divisions for those same 3 people in our area to shoot when I can focus on growing the match in other divisions. 

So to each of you, how do you propose to convince the organization and large area / section match directors it's worth the time and energy to pursue this? The "If you build it they will come" didn't happen at Area 4. One of those shooters literally borrowed 2 revolvers to try and game trophies.  

Is it REALLY a competition if there's 3 shooters?

Are you personally going to sign up for Area matches and travel?

Will you be promoting the match to other revolver shooters to justify the division? 

Are you willing to say if there aren't 20 RF_ISR and 20 RF_OSR shooters then the division doesn't make and you wont be scored? 

What level of personal investment do you plan to put into this to grow your division? 

If you don't care about trophies, only about seeing your name on the scores, what is keeping you from entering RFPI and RFPO with revolvers? The "I wont shoot unless you add this division" mentality doesn't make sense. 

 

I'm kind of shocked at your position on this matter. If a guy steps up to the line to shoot a Stage, it shouldn't matter what's in his hands, only that he's there to participate.  Based on your reasoning  the league should go down to six divisions ( auto, revolver, rifle ) each in CF and RF. I guess that would make your life alot easier.  Also, to answer your question, yes, I do travel alot to shoot and I ask a lot of shooters their opinion on this subject. As you can see, the response is mostly favorable. (Actually, you are the only one that seems to oppose it) an opinion you are entitled to. I'll keep my revolvers out of Area 4 in the future though.  

[Darqusoull13]

8 minutes ago, revolver45 said:

I'm kind of shocked at your position on this matter. If a guy steps up to the line to shoot a Stage, it shouldn't matter what's in his hands, only that he's there to participate.  Based on your reasoning  the league should go down to six divisions ( auto, revolver, rifle ) each in CF and RF. I guess that would make your life alot easier.  Also, to answer your question, yes, I do travel alot to shoot and I ask a lot of shooters their opinion on this subject. As you can see, the response is mostly favorable. (Actually, you are the only one that seems to oppose it) an opinion you are entitled to. I'll keep my revolvers out of Area 4 in the future though.  

As you can see, I did not skimp on the Revolver trophies. Actually quite the opposite, I put more $ per shooter into revolver division trophies than any other division. 

You can further ask @Makicjf my position on whether Revolvers are welcome at any match we have hosted together. 

What I'm asking is, "With participation in Revolver Divisions so low already, what objective data do you have to support adding additional divisions?" 

National and Area match division percentages do not show a reason. Does a 5 year trend across all entries down to the local level look positive? Have you requested those statistics from Jake Martens? He has them. 

I'm asking you to convince me with objective data, not heuristics and hand waving because the numbers I'm looking at do not support adding divisions. 

NOTE: I'm not even saying I want to remove divisions. I actually plan on shooting both wheel gun divisions starting early 2022. 

[AzShooter]

Since it takes 5 in a division for a first prize what does it matter how much you are spending on trophies if you don't get the required 5?  There is no extra cost to the match to run the shooters.  I may be wrong in the number it takes to recognize a winner but to put their scores on the final sheet is what most guys are saying is important.

 

 

[Darqusoull13]

52 minutes ago, AzShooter said:

Since it takes 5 in a division for a first prize what does it matter how much you are spending on trophies if you don't get the required 5?  There is no extra cost to the match to run the shooters.  I may be wrong in the number it takes to recognize a winner but to put their scores on the final sheet is what most guys are saying is important.

 

 

Show me data that there will be shooters. 

I've shown you I put up and tried to support revolver despite the division not even coming close to making. All I'm asking is for data to support what this topic is suggesting. Show me data and you have my support.

 

Otherwise it's the same group of 20 people in a section of the forums all agreeing when in reality the Revolver section is that not all that active compared to the any other sections of the forum. 

[revolver45]

2 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

As you can see, I did not skimp on the Revolver trophies. Actually quite the opposite, I put more $ per shooter into revolver division trophies than any other division. 

You can further ask @Makicjf my position on whether Revolvers are welcome at any match we have hosted together. 

What I'm asking is, "With participation in Revolver Divisions so low already, what objective data do you have to support adding additional divisions?" 

National and Area match division percentages do not show a reason. Does a 5 year trend across all entries down to the local level look positive? Have you requested those statistics from Jake Martens? He has them. 

I'm asking you to convince me with objective data, not heuristics and hand waving because the numbers I'm looking at do not support adding divisions. 

NOTE: I'm not even saying I want to remove divisions. I actually plan on shooting both wheel gun divisions starting early 2022. 

I have the statistics you are referring to from Jake Marteens. It shows in writing that from January 1 to June 30, 2021 there have been over 5000 competitors in the RFPO and 2000 in the RFPI divisions and when I asked him directly how many were revolver shooters, he could not give me the answer. I would be really interested in knowing what that number is. Again, giving the rimfire revolver shooters a division to shoot in is only a matter of an hour of computer time and a provisional time period to see what happens. Just trying to get a fair shake. The carry optic guys wouldn't want to be lumped in with the open guns anymore than the PCC guys want to be up against the RFR guys, yet you say the revolver and the autos should compete as one. We disagree and are asking for a change.  

[Darqusoull13]

31 minutes ago, revolver45 said:

I have the statistics you are referring to from Jake Marteens. It shows in writing that from January 1 to June 30, 2021 there have been over 5000 competitors in the RFPO and 2000 in the RFPI divisions and when I asked him directly how many were revolver shooters, he could not give me the answer. I would be really interested in knowing what that number is. Again, giving the rimfire revolver shooters a division to shoot in is only a matter of an hour of computer time and a provisional time period to see what happens. Just trying to get a fair shake. The carry optic guys wouldn't want to be lumped in with the open guns anymore than the PCC guys want to be up against the RFR guys, yet you say the revolver and the autos should compete as one. We disagree and are asking for a change.  

Right, so we had zero rimfire revolvers at A4. Until you begin tracking those numbers over 2021, how many ISR and OSR competitors were there in 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017 and 2016? 5 years of increasing participation will help you make a case. 

Again, I'm trying to help you. But being really interested and wanting a fair shake aren't concrete numbers you can take to the board. It's a hand full of guys on the internet. 

[revolver45]

31 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Right, so we had zero rimfire revolvers at A4. Until you begin tracking those numbers over 2021, how many ISR and OSR competitors were there in 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017 and 2016? 5 years of increasing participation will help you make a case. 

Again, I'm trying to help you. But being really interested and wanting a fair shake aren't concrete numbers you can take to the board. It's a hand full of guys on the internet. 

From January 1 thru June 30, 2021 there was a total of 557 ISR and 459 OSR shooters. While I understand that that is a low percentage of total shooters,  the lowest (1%) was actually  PCC Irons. 342 participants. Now, based on your theory (numbers) then PCCI should go before the Revolvers, wouldn't you agree?. If everything is based on popularity,  half of the existing classes should go. Again and for the last time, let them shoot in their own division.  If there aren't enough shooters then put them with the autos, for that match. 

[Chillywig]

I have always wanted a 617 and finally broke down and got one off this forum. Since having it I have shot it several times, but only once is a SC match. Going against the autos makes it less appealing in a match, other than just having fun. I have autos and if you can't tell the difference looking at pricatiscore after the match it just looks like I had an off match. But shooting the 617 has renewed my interest in revolvers. We used to have ICORE matches but they died out about 10 years ago but I still have a couple of my ICORE guns. I have been thinking about using a revo in USPSA or trying OSR in SC. I know at our club there are at least 5 guys with 617s but they don't get used in matches very often. I am sure the no rimfire revo division is is why. While we are wishing how about a USPSA revolver division with optics so I don't have to shoot my 627 against open guns - talk about no appeal

 

[Chillywig]

So ya TY61820 count me in a rimfire revo iron optics adder fan boy. I understand the wishing more people would participate in divisions in majors. But without a revo division I want to shoot why not just shoot my PCC?

[mchapman]

4 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Right, so we had zero rimfire revolvers at A4.

Using your logic about not having any interest we may just as well cancel all of the sc matches in Area 1, as we didn't have enough shooters of anything sign up to shoot so Area 1 was cancelled. So I guess we need to take up golf or cow tipping or something.LOL On a serious note, there are a lot of people that have 22 revolvers that don't use them because of no distinction of division. There are a lot of revolver shooters that don't have 22 revolvers, owning one does not require owning both. Now as a MD, myself, I put on over 50 matches a year of USPSA, ICORE, and SCSA, and I don't see where or how it is going to cost you or your club anything more to have the different divisions. It doesn't take any more paint to repaint the targets, if you are using a revo or a semi-auto, It generally takes about the same time for each shooter to shoot the course, and as far as buying a trophy. It's real simple you don't buy one if you don't have the numbers. Come match day and the numbers increase, it's no big deal to get your trophy in the mail a few weeks latter. but that would maybe take you a little bit more time, otherwise save your money and only order for what you have signed up.

[PeterParfinik]

I would if it was recognized.

[Darqusoull13]

15 hours ago, revolver45 said:

From January 1 thru June 30, 2021 there was a total of 557 ISR and 459 OSR shooters. While I understand that that is a low percentage of total shooters,  the lowest (1%) was actually  PCC Irons. 342 participants. Now, based on your theory (numbers) then PCCI should go before the Revolvers, wouldn't you agree?. If everything is based on popularity,  half of the existing classes should go. Again and for the last time, let them shoot in their own division.  If there aren't enough shooters then put them with the autos, for that match. 

We put an optic as the top prize for PCCI. Shooters thought it was pretty funny and not just the 4 PCCI folks. 

The numbers aren't a theory, it's what the BOD will want to see. I get it though. There's a lot of rabble about "we want to shoot every gun we own but only against guys shooting guns like us." That won't help and neither 1016 entries for a single year. That's not even a percent. Show an increasing trend of revolver shooters and you might get some traction. 

Bring 10 guys out to A4 next year and I'll recognize the 22's. Otherwise I'll keep growing the underrepresented divisions the only way that works, encouraging gamers to game with awesome trophies and prizes. 

[revolver45]

18 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

We put an optic as the top prize for PCCI. Shooters thought it was pretty funny and not just the 4 PCCI folks. 

The numbers aren't a theory, it's what the BOD will want to see. I get it though. There's a lot of rabble about "we want to shoot every gun we own but only against guys shooting guns like us." That won't help and neither 1016 entries for a single year. That's not even a percent. Show an increasing trend of revolver shooters and you might get some traction. 

Bring 10 guys out to A4 next year and I'll recognize the 22's. Otherwise I'll keep growing the underrepresented divisions the only way that works, encouraging gamers to game with awesome trophies and prizes. 

6 of us are going to the ICORE Championship in Louisiana in September. A trip to a big meet in Area 4 may just be next. I'll keep you posted on that. By the way, your input is greatly appreciated on this matter. Thanks. Manny. 

[DS-10-SPEED]

The number of 10 shot .22 speed loaders out there may be an indication of how many shooters that may be interested in .22 revolver divisions. Since 2005 I think I have made almost 10K loaders, add to that 10 shot loaders made by others. Most have 1 to 5 loaders each, that's a minimum of 2000 shooters out there ready to go. I would think separate divisions might bring them out to compete. I know I do more local bowling pin and steel plate matches because they have .22 revolver divisions.

[revolver45]

Thanks for that information.  Quite interesting. Do you have a website for your products? Please advise. 

[DS-10-SPEED]

2 hours ago, revolver45 said:

Thanks for that information.  Quite interesting. Do you have a website for your products? Please advise. 

Go to Revolver Supply.

 

Also: https://ds10speed.wordpress.com/

Edited July 28, 2021 by DS-10-SPEED
Link added.