If they recognized it, would you shoot it ?

[Gregg K]

51 minutes ago, AR_James said:

  Plus, RCSA is .22 only; so that excludes the center fire folks.  

That's the killer for me. I run 2 sometimes 3 Steel Challenge matches a month. While a lot of people shoot .22 now I would not exclude the center fire guys. If I was to exclude the center fire guys in tomorrows match I would loose 18 of the 55 guns.

[10mmdave]

11 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

I know it feels like all 3 of you were slighted, but the reality is there are not enough participants to make any difference. 

The best way to change that is to be a good enabler like our "Token Revolver" guy Jason. He's let a ton of people borrow his wheel guns and gear to the point that there were 5 entries out of 45 at our last local SCSA match. Most of those folks wanted to do it because Jason showed them it was fun. 

When you've got 300 people competing weekly in revolver rimfire you might be able to get some attention. 

 

8 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

I'd still rather people focus on things that will move the needle. 

18 people in an area. Is that your USPSA Area? Because that number is still exceedingly low. 

Are all 18 shooters members? Have any of them emailed their Area Director? 

I got off the proverbial porch to play in a dead division because of our revolver guy being so outgoing and welcoming. For 8 years he's been 1 of maaaaybe 4 active revolver shooters in our Area I can think of. 

I'll always design matches to be revolver friendly as best I can. But at the end of the day, it's a novelty. Nothing is stopping you from continuing to run your rimfire wheelgun in SCSA in a current division. Betting lunch and beating your rimfire revolver homies at a match is still more fun than a silly plaque anyway.

All you're asking for with "Recognition" is a plaque. 

Another tool that doesn't understand, but what eva, I tried, they suck, time to take up golf.

[Almo]

It seems like there is a high demand for rimfire revolver.  I would sometimes shoot it myself if it was a category.  I think one reason it hasn't happened yet is that many of the Area Directors don't shoot Steel Challenge; their emphasis is on USPSA, which doesn't have any rimfire divisions.  Steel Challenge seems to be predominantly rimfire now (used to be predominantly 9mm); a completely different emphasis than USPSA.

[Joe4d]

20 minutes ago, Almo said:

It seems like there is a high demand for rimfire revolver.  I would sometimes shoot it myself if it was a category.  I think one reason it hasn't happened yet is that many of the Area Directors don't shoot Steel Challenge; their emphasis is on USPSA, which doesn't have any rimfire divisions.  Steel Challenge seems to be predominantly rimfire now (used to be predominantly 9mm); a completely different emphasis than USPSA.

went back and loooked at the closest SC match to me, and Rimfire got pretty high last year but is starting to come down.. Probably has alot to do with ammo and primer issues.
Seems to be about 50% rimfire last summer.

Way i see it, there isnt any reason  not to shoot rimfire,, plenty of inexpesive competititive guns, and ammo is cheap, readily available, and you dont have to worry about knocking over targets or picking up brass

I did just buy a 617 and will be shooting that with an optic if I make any SC matches as I also want to try out ICORE

[Almo]

A lot of the rimfire increase is certainly due to ridiculous ammo prices.  I also think part of the increase is due to the fun factor.  I know I started shooting it due to ammo prices but continued shooting it due to the fun factor.  In our last match, the breakdown was 24% centerfire handgun, 61% rimfire, and 15% pistol caliber carbine.  I know I'll eventually start alternating rimfire and centerfire, but I think a lot of those shooting rimfire won't be shooting much centerfire in the future.

[revolver45]

Here's some information that I got directly from USPSA Reps. They say that they looked into a .22 revolver division and they don't feel that it would be of great interest to a lot of shooters, (meaning revenue to the USPSA). When I questioned them about whether it was about the money or the shooters, they stressed that money wasn't the issue. Given the current situation on the web about the association's finances, I'm thinking it is all about the dollars. Anyway, my opinion.  But I do know that my Club and a lot of others are  starting their own Rimfire Challenge Matches where the revolver is in a class of its own. Unless the USPSA puts the money aside and caters to its members, they will continue to loose Clubs like mine. ELF. 

[Thomas H]

3 hours ago, revolver45 said:

When I questioned them about whether it was about the money or the shooters, they stressed that money wasn't the issue.

 

Given that I'm pretty sure they believe that people will simply be shooting rimfire revolver instead of a different division (instead of this potential change suddenly making a lot of rimfire revolvers shooters show up out of nowhere) it seems pretty likely that indeed, money wasn't the issue.

 

They would literally lose no money adding rimfire revolver.  i'm not sure how it could be about the money.

 

 

3 hours ago, revolver45 said:

 

But I do know that my Club and a lot of others are  starting their own Rimfire Challenge Matches where the revolver is in a class of its own. 

 

As someone has mentioned before---every club can literally add a category in their registration for "rimfire revolver" so that when people are shooting RFPI, they can literally not only compare score to other rimfire revo people, but also start actually collecting data to send to their Area Director as a reason to add rimfire revolver.

 

As has been said from Zach and the BoD, they don't think there is enough interest to add rimfire revolver division.  I know people keep saying here that there is a lot of interest----but even on a thread specifically about it, there haven't been that many people saying they would do it.  Enough to fill a squad?  Sure.  More?  Not really...

 

Which is not me saying that there ISN'T enough interest actually among members across the nation.  I am saying, however, that no one seems to be presenting data on that sort of thing to the Board, which means they aren't going to be convinced.

 

Is anyone trying to contact a bunch of SC clubs, and asking them to make a rimfire revo category to gather some data?  It wouldn't be hard to do---take an extra 30 seconds to set up in the registration form, that's all.  After the match, write down the numbers, then send them to someone who is collecting all of it...

 

For those who are pushing for this, is anyone trying to collect more data to convince the board than merely asking here?

[revolver45]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

Given that I'm pretty sure they believe that people will simply be shooting rimfire revolver instead of a different division (instead of this potential change suddenly making a lot of rimfire revolvers shooters show up out of nowhere) it seems pretty likely that indeed, money wasn't the issue.

 

They would literally lose no money adding rimfire revolver.  i'm not sure how it could be about the money.

 

 

 

As someone has mentioned before---every club can literally add a category in their registration for "rimfire revolver" so that when people are shooting RFPI, they can literally not only compare score to other rimfire revo people, but also start actually collecting data to send to their Area Director as a reason to add rimfire revolver.

 

As has been said from Zach and the BoD, they don't think there is enough interest to add rimfire revolver division.  I know people keep saying here that there is a lot of interest----but even on a thread specifically about it, there haven't been that many people saying they would do it.  Enough to fill a squad?  Sure.  More?  Not really...

 

Which is not me saying that there ISN'T enough interest actually among members across the nation.  I am saying, however, that no one seems to be presenting data on that sort of thing to the Board, which means they aren't going to be convinced.

 

Is anyone trying to contact a bunch of SC clubs, and asking them to make a rimfire revo category to gather some data?  It wouldn't be hard to do---take an extra 30 seconds to set up in the registration form, that's all.  After the match, write down the numbers, then send them to someone who is collecting all of it...

 

For those who are pushing for this, is anyone trying to collect more data to convince the board than merely asking here?

[revolver45]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

Given that I'm pretty sure they believe that people will simply be shooting rimfire revolver instead of a different division (instead of this potential change suddenly making a lot of rimfire revolvers shooters show up out of nowhere) it seems pretty likely that indeed, money wasn't the issue.

 

They would literally lose no money adding rimfire revolver.  i'm not sure how it could be about the money.

 

 

 

As someone has mentioned before---every club can literally add a category in their registration for "rimfire revolver" so that when people are shooting RFPI, they can literally not only compare score to other rimfire revo people, but also start actually collecting data to send to their Area Director as a reason to add rimfire revolver.

 

As has been said from Zach and the BoD, they don't think there is enough interest to add rimfire revolver division.  I know people keep saying here that there is a lot of interest----but even on a thread specifically about it, there haven't been that many people saying they would do it.  Enough to fill a squad?  Sure.  More?  Not really...

 

Which is not me saying that there ISN'T enough interest actually among members across the nation.  I am saying, however, that no one seems to be presenting data on that sort of thing to the Board, which means they aren't going to be convinced.

 

Is anyone trying to contact a bunch of SC clubs, and asking them to make a rimfire revo category to gather some data?  It wouldn't be hard to do---take an extra 30 seconds to set up in the registration form, that's all.  After the match, write down the numbers, then send them to someone who is collecting all of it...

 

For those who are pushing for this, is anyone trying to collect more data to convince the board than merely asking here?

When someone in power is not interested in putting a proposed change into the system, it makes no difference what gets submitted, they will not implement that change. USPSA officials told members from Area 7 to write up the facts and submit them ( which they did) for consideration, and they never brought it up for any discussion. If you have followed the story about the corruption at the top of the organization you would realize it really is about the money. 

[Almo]

On 3/23/2023 at 1:26 PM, Thomas H said:

 

Given that I'm pretty sure they believe that people will simply be shooting rimfire revolver instead of a different division

I believe many would shoot both rimfire pistol and rimfire revolver, thus adding revenue.  Presently, you can't shoot both because they would both fall under rimfire pistol.

[PractricalUse]

Yes.  Please add it!!!

[10mmdave]

As the originator to this thread, I'm not sure what to add to this discussion other than

I am very happy that new folks have joined the discussion!!

 

 

With all the news/rumors about USPSA’s "issues", past and present I guess, bringing

this topic up during the plandemic, me not doing enough to stir up interest in the topic,

(I really should have reached out to more area directors) and a Steel Challenge Director

being added in the middle of it and no one telling him and no one telling him

"Hey!! there's a proposal from some guy in Area 7 to add some new SC divisions"

we really didn't stand a chance.

 

 

USPSA the Org doesn't really see us as we see us, we're the red-headed stepchildren, the

odd family member that everyone talks about, just be quiet and give us your money and

we’ll keep logging your scores to keep you somewhat quiet.

 

 

But, with all that said, some new revelations about Steel Challenge shooters has come to

light!! Like how some many folks that shoot the game but are not registered members??

We had a poster here admit it in this very thread for one, if you have no skin in the game,

it does make it hard to listen.

Another is the private money matches, I thought every USPSA/Steel Challenge match I

enrolled in benefitted the club I was shooting at, not so, well not in the way I assumed it was.

Not sure how I feel about this, especially when there are some heavy dollar prize matches out

there. Is a non-profit organization? (well the way it’s run currently I guess it is)

And don’t even get me started about the cheaters…oh I’m sorry, I guess they’re called “gamers”

 

 

I need to see some real changes in the way Steel Challenge is represented for its members

before I go and spend any real time on this issue again. As many have mentioned, Steel

Challenge is not an entity, USPSA is the governing body, we have no BOD, we have no real

say in what goes ones on except for our one representative. (Thanks Zack)

 

 

Oh well, I guess I did have some stuff to add

 

(sorry for the formatting, lost pwr here and cut & pasted this from word b4 I lost my interweb conn)  

Edited March 30, 2023 by 10mmdave

[revolver45]

18 minutes ago, 10mmdave said:

As the originator to this thread, I'm not sure what to add to this discussion other than

I am very happy that new folks have joined the discussion!!

 

 

With all the news/rumors about USPSA’s "issues", past and present I guess, bringing

this topic up during the plandemic, me not doing enough to stir up interest in the topic,

(I really should have reached out to more area directors) and a Steel Challenge Director

being added in the middle of it and no one telling him and no one telling him

"Hey!! there's a proposal from some guy in Area 7 to add some new SC divisions"

we really didn't stand a chance.

 

 

USPSA the Org doesn't really see us as we see us, we're the red-headed stepchildren, the

odd family member that everyone talks about, just be quiet and give us your money and

we’ll keep logging your scores to keep you somewhat quiet.

 

 

But, with all that said, some new revelations about Steel Challenge shooters has come to

light!! Like how some many folks that shoot the game but are not registered members??

We had a poster here admit it in this very thread for one, if you have no skin in the game,

it does make it hard to listen.

Another is the private money matches, I thought every USPSA/Steel Challenge match I

enrolled in benefitted the club I was shooting at, not so, well not in the way I assumed it was.

Not sure how I feel about this, especially when there are some heavy dollar prize matches out

there. Is a non-profit organization? (well the way it’s run currently I guess it is)

And don’t even get me started about the cheaters…oh I’m sorry, I guess they’re called “gamers”

 

 

I need to see some real changes in the way Steel Challenge is represented for its members

before I go and spend any real time on this issue again. As many have mentioned, Steel

Challenge is not an entity, USPSA is the governing body, we have no BOD, we have no real

say in what goes ones on except for our one representative. (Thanks Zack)

 

 

Oh well, I guess I did have some stuff to add

 

(sorry for the formatting, lost pwr here and cut & pasted this from word b4 I lost my interweb conn)  

Well stated Dave. I for one, will be steering my Club towards the "Rimfire Challenge" type of matches in the future. It avoids a couple of issues that we deal with in Steel Challenge. Being able to create different classes is the main bonus, but contestants not knowing the course layout is another. Everyone started out cold, and no one has practiced the course for two weeks leading up to the match. I'm finding that more shooters like that format better. Again people, JUST MY OPINION, which even today, I believe I am entitled to. Moonclip.

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, 10mmdave said:

 

USPSA the Org doesn't really see us as we see us, we're the red-headed stepchildren, the

odd family member that everyone talks about, just be quiet and give us your money and

we’ll keep logging your scores to keep you somewhat quiet.

 

 

 

And there it is..  I just got into steel challenge last year. I see absolutely ZERO reason to join USPSA or give them any money.. I am guessing the club gives them a cut of my entry fee.  Outside of maybe insurance coverage I really see no reason for a club to give them any money either. 
USPSA does absolutely nothing for SC , cant even get a stand alone RO program going. 
If the BOD wasnt so clueless maybe they would look at the match results numbers and see how many arnt members,, and maybe ask a couple whys.

 

[mchapman]

16 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

If the BOD wasnt so clueless maybe they would look at the match results numbers and see how many arnt members,, and maybe ask a couple whys.

I wish that could/would happen but I don't think that they really care because when the club submits the results they have to pay for everyone that shot it, not just for the members  so it's not much of a lose for them [uspsa].

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, mchapman said:

I wish that could/would happen but I don't think that they really care because when the club submits the results they have to pay for everyone that shot it, not just for the members  so it's not much of a lose for them [uspsa].

The lose out on annual dues, lose out on having certified RO's, lose out on folks that might consider coming to a major match, lose out on people that might shoot a USPSA match because they are a member.. 
They definitely dont gain anything. 
Isnt USPSA losing money ?

[Almo]

Here's an example of how USPSA is out of touch with Steel Challenge.  I just got an Email from USPSA talking about a 9mm ammo from Eley that they certified for Steel Challenge.  Upon investigation, it appears to be Eley's USPSA Competition ammo simply rebranded for Steel Challenge.  It has a 130 power factor, same as their USPSA Competition ammo.  I shoot the same ammo for both because I don't want to mess with two different reloads.  But many Steel Challenge shooters shoot much lighter loads since there is no minimum power factor.  If they were going to certify a true Steel Challenge ammo, it should probably be a 115 or 120 power factor.

[Darqusoull13]

11 minutes ago, Almo said:

Here's an example of how USPSA is out of touch with Steel Challenge.  I just got an Email from USPSA talking about a 9mm ammo from Eley that they certified for Steel Challenge.  Upon investigation, it appears to be Eley's USPSA Competition ammo simply rebranded for Steel Challenge.  It has a 130 power factor, same as their USPSA Competition ammo.  I shoot the same ammo for both because I don't want to mess with two different reloads.  But many Steel Challenge shooters shoot much lighter loads since there is no minimum power factor.  If they were going to certify a true Steel Challenge ammo, it should probably be a 115 or 120 power factor.

It also wouldn't cycle a bunch of factory guns. Remember, there's still folks buying what is known as "Any In Stock Ammo" right now that have no idea what SCSA is. 

The fact that companies are even branding ammo for the game is a positive step. If you want bleeding edge reliability, you're going to have to reload.