Preferred Shadow 2 Bullet Profile

[SJBriggs]

I'm new to the world of CZs and just ordered up a Shadow 2 OR. Before I go through the whole load development process, I was wondering if the CZ pistols prefer a certain bullet profile  -- specifically from Blue Bullets (they seem to run faster than any other coated bullets).

 

Thanks in advance!

[ck1]

I've been shooting a bunch of Blue's 135gr .356 TC's at 1.115" OAL and they've run perfect and have been lasers for me. 

 

In my experience the Blue RN 147gr was a bitch with my S2 and it didn't like them at all, they have a fat ogive (even though they run fine in a STI 9mm 1911 and Glock G17).

 

Before I started rolling my own, I ran a bunch of the 150gr Syntech Action Pistol and that stuff was fine, and that's fairly close to Blue's truncated cone shape (the TC's are more rounded so they actually are probably more forgiving feeding-wise). 

 

Previously I'd only shot mostly 124/147/150gr's, back and forth between the 124's and 147/150's a lot... IMHO the 135's are kinda like the "goldilocks" in that they're still super soft-shooting, but the slide feels faster than with 147/150's at the same power factor of ~130pf.

 

I get the "special order profile" .356's just because Blue's "normal" are .355, and since every other coated bullet manufacturer uses .356 as "the standard" I do too lol (and I've heard the .356's may lead up the barrel less...) YMMV. I'm sure the .355's are fine too.

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by ck1

[Bravo_Victor]

I shoot 160gr RN Bayous through mine. Incredibly soft 

[SGT_Schultz]

Most coated lead 147 RNFP bullets seem to come from the same mold and don't seem to run well in any CZ that I've had (seven of them)

 

The only 147 RNFP I could make run reliably are those made by Rocky Mountain Reloaders.

 

In my experience, CZs will feed anything round nose as long as the OAL fits in the chamber.  Truncated cone bullets with steep cones and small meplats work very well too.

 

These will work:

 

 

These might not

Edited January 17, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[Snowman50]

Blue bullets 125 TC (.356 special order profile)

[midatlantic]

I’ve run blue 147 thru two different s2s and have never had trouble feeding. 

[GeneBray]

On 1/16/2021 at 12:24 PM, SJBriggs said:

I'm new to the world of CZs and just ordered up a Shadow 2 OR. Before I go through the whole load development process, I was wondering if the CZ pistols prefer a certain bullet profile  -- specifically from Blue Bullets (they seem to run faster than any other coated bullets).

 

Thanks in advance!

My SP01 eats anything and everything I've ever put in it.  Manufacturers - Blue, Hornady, Winchester White Box, Montana Gold, Zero, Precison Delta, Armscor, IMI, and many others I cannot recall right now.  Weight 95, 115, 122, 124, 125, 130, 135, and 147 gr.  Profiles RN, RNSP, JHP (both TC and rounded profile HP), TC.

 

The only issue is occassionally I have vary seating depth for reliable feeding and that is due to the bullet profile affection the geometry of the round hitting the feed ramp and top a chamber during feeding.

 

Remember all bullets of a given type almost certainly have some variation in their profile -- ogives are different on RN and rounded JHP, TC style some have a long taper to the FP and others are shorter and stubblier.  If you have a RN that feed realiabily with a specific length, and you change manufacturers and purchase a RN bullet, it may not feed reliably with the COL you were using due to ogiver difference.  And, even from the same manufacturer the ogive may change for the same bullet weight.  Same differences in the profile can change feeding reliability significantly.

 

Finally, keep good records on reloading to include all details of the bullet and COL.

[Baldwin]

I've been shooting Bayou's 120gr. truncated cone bullets over 3.6 gr of Titegroup with an OAL of 1.030".  Pretty dang accurate.

[SJBriggs]

Great info, thank you. So, it seems like RN and TC are the way to go. 

[broadside72]

My SP01 will take anything I've fed it so far. 

 

My Bull Shadow however is more finicky and I need to drop the the OAL a bunch for 125gn RN coated, to 1.10 or so.  115 plated RN (berry's HBTP) ran fine at the longer OAL (@1.145). 

 

So it depends on your gun

[mveto]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

My SP01 will take anything I've fed it so far. 

 

My Bull Shadow however is more finicky and I need to drop the the OAL a bunch for 125gn RN coated, to 1.10 or so.  115 plated RN (berry's HBTP) ran fine at the longer OAL (@1.145). 

 

So it depends on your gun

I had my Bull Shadow barrel reamed so I could use the same round as my SP01, which is a BB 135tc at 1.135.

[Rolex]

Blue Bullets 135gr TC run perfect in my CZ S2.

[broadside72]

1 hour ago, mveto said:

I had my Bull Shadow barrel reamed so I could use the same round as my SP01, which is a BB 135tc at 1.135.

 

yeah, I could do that. But my reloads work in both guns now, so i am in no hurry

[GeneBray]

2 hours ago, mveto said:

I had my Bull Shadow barrel reamed so I could use the same round as my SP01, which is a BB 135tc at 1.135.

If the bullets didn't pass plunk test in Bull Shadow, reaming is the fix.  Otherwise it is ramp and mag geometry, and possibly top of the chamber where the bullet hits during feeding.  From your post, I am assuming they didn't pass which is the reason for the reaming.  Wondering if anyone has plugged the barrel and made a mold of the chamber to compare measurements with SAAMI and C.I.P. standards on "short" CZ barrels.  The chambers should meet one of those two specs.  If my recollection is correct, the SAAMI and C.I.P. 9mm Lugger specs are slightly different but not substantially so.  Guess my curiousity will force me to look when I find time.  Maybe today....will post if I do

[mveto]

5 hours ago, GeneBray said:

If the bullets didn't pass plunk test in Bull Shadow, reaming is the fix.  Otherwise it is ramp and mag geometry, and possibly top of the chamber where the bullet hits during feeding.  From your post, I am assuming they didn't pass which is the reason for the reaming.  Wondering if anyone has plugged the barrel and made a mold of the chamber to compare measurements with SAAMI and C.I.P. standards on "short" CZ barrels.  The chambers should meet one of those two specs.  If my recollection is correct, the SAAMI and C.I.P. 9mm Lugger specs are slightly different but not substantially so.  Guess my curiousity will force me to look when I find time.  Maybe today....will post if I do

Yeah the chamber was very short, I was loading for my SP01 at 1.135 with the 135tc’s, in order to get the rounds to plunk in the Bull Shadow I would have had to load them at 1.10, that was in 2 different Bull Shadows.

[GeneBray]

On 1/22/2021 at 9:16 PM, mveto said:

Yeah the chamber was very short, I was loading for my SP01 at 1.135 with the 135tc’s, in order to get the rounds to plunk in the Bull Shadow I would have had to load them at 1.10, that was in 2 different Bull Shadows.

U.S. isn't a signatory to C.I.P.  Think SAAMI is voluntary since a lot of cartridges don't have SAAMI standards.  If I am reading the SAAMI spec correctly for 9mm Luger the head space length min. is 0.754" and max of 0.776" from breachface.  That is .022" length variation.  And, the throat should begin .0353" from where the case mouth stops moving forward in chamber.  That dimension can vary from 0 to +0.004.  Total chamber length must be within 0.012" of spec.  However, I don't find a definition of what is the chamber length, and their drawing don't specify.  My opinion the spec is written horribly.

[Trippy]

On 1/17/2021 at 3:05 PM, Baldwin said:

I've been shooting Bayou's 120gr. truncated cone bullets over 3.6 gr of Titegroup with an OAL of 1.030".  Pretty dang accurate.

Wow! 1.030 OAL? That seems pretty short. Lowest I've had to go for my Shadow 2 is 1.090 with Acme 125 gn nlg greens. I'm curious, did you determine this length using a plunk, or how did you come to it? Not sure of the Titegroup data but did you have to lighten the load to compensate for the increase in seating depth? 

[looking4reloadingdeals]

On 1/22/2021 at 10:16 PM, mveto said:

Yeah the chamber was very short, I was loading for my SP01 at 1.135 with the 135tc’s, in order to get the rounds to plunk in the Bull Shadow I would have had to load them at 1.10, that was in 2 different Bull Shadows.

I found my S2 chamber to be extremely short as well. For the Blue 147 RN I had to go down to 1.050” oal to get them to plunk. At this length I had failure to feeds 1 in 50 or so. I ended up switching to the TC profile. I tried 50 from a buddy and didn’t have any problems so I ordered a couple cases. Working through my other “odds and ends” bullets IV acquired over the years before moving to those exclusively so I can’t provide an actual reliability report on them personally. 
 

the one great thing about having such a short chamber (and fairly tight in my experience) is that if the rounds pass plunk in my S2, they will work in all of my other guns also without problems. Tested this over a while and when a bullet would fail in my S2 I would try it in all the other battles and 100% of the time they would plunk in the other guns (as long as it was simply an oal issue and not a bulged case or something). 
 

the bullets IV tried are (all 147s):

Blue FP 1.120”

DG FP 1.120”

Brazos RN 1.090”

X-treme RN 1.140”

SNS TC 1.140”

Everglades RN 1.140”

 

 

Berrys FRBH 124 1.030”

RMR RN 115 1.135”

 

Hope this helps. 

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, looking4reloadingdeals said:

I found my S2 chamber to be extremely short as well. For the Blue 147 RN I had to go down to 1.050” oal to get them to plunk. At this length I had failure to feeds 1 in 50 or so.

The Shadow 2 definitely has a super short chamber. I’ve reamed a few dozen of them for guys who can’t find anyone else who can cut a hardened barrel.

 

I cut more CZ S2s/P10s/P09s and 5th Gen Glocks than anything else these days.

 

SP-01 barrels cut like butter so anyone with a Brownells reamer can lengthen that chamber, and it would have been great if they’d carried that over to the 2nd generation of Shadow. The newer models have super damn hard barrels - only the Glock is harder to machine.

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by MemphisMechanic

[shred]

On 1/29/2021 at 5:48 PM, GeneBray said:

U.S. isn't a signatory to C.I.P.  Think SAAMI is voluntary since a lot of cartridges don't have SAAMI standards.  If I am reading the SAAMI spec correctly for 9mm Luger the head space length min. is 0.754" and max of 0.776" from breachface.  That is .022" length variation.  And, the throat should begin .0353" from where the case mouth stops moving forward in chamber.  That dimension can vary from 0 to +0.004.  Total chamber length must be within 0.012" of spec.  However, I don't find a definition of what is the chamber length, and their drawing don't specify.  My opinion the spec is written horribly.

It's not the chamber (where the brass goes) per se, it's the throat/leade that is different and short in CZ's and other European pistols.  The CIP 9x19 spec is worse than the SAAMI one in regards to those details even though they are copies of each other for the most part.  There is no SAAMI 'chamber length' beyond the .9258" reference dimension because the barrel is a hollow tube at that point and if your bullet isn't at or under .354" by the diameter spec at .8113", all bets are off -- the spec was written expecting a round-nose bullet and not a bullet profile designed for a different purpose, so if you want to shoot those you might need to recut the leade so they'll fit.

 

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

@shred nailed it. There is no fixed spec for *exactly* how far away from the chamber you are supposed to put the beginning of the rifling lands. This varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.

 

American SAAMI spec M&Ps have very short chambers and Smith is a SAAMI member.

 

3rd & 4th generation Glocks will eat longer ammo than you can possibly stuff in the mags. They’re European and thus per the internet should never have been chambered so long.

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by MemphisMechanic

[SJBriggs]

All good info! Thanks, y'all!

[BryceA]

I also use Blue Bullet 135 TC, .356 diameter. Paired with a dash of Sport Pistol, it's a really nice shooting round out of my S2. They do need to be loaded a bit short though, 1.120 will do, so not terribly different than my gen5 glocks which I typically loaded to 1.125.

[Baldwin]

On 2/4/2021 at 6:45 AM, Trippy said:

Wow! 1.030 OAL? That seems pretty short. Lowest I've had to go for my Shadow 2 is 1.090 with Acme 125 gn nlg greens. I'm curious, did you determine this length using a plunk, or how did you come to it? Not sure of the Titegroup data but did you have to lighten the load to compensate for the increase in seating depth? 

It has to do with the bullet profile.  If I load with an oal over 1.040 it won't chamber.  Ran into a similar issue when I bought my 97B.