I wish Production wasn't dying

[Intheshaw1]

10 minutes ago, 2MoreChains said:

 

Been seeing an influx of new shooters this summer at my local club match.  They are showing up with some sort of hi-cap 9mm pistol and 3-4 mags.  Guess which division we recommend they start in….yep, Limited minor.  If Prod was 15 rnds that would be an option.  But at 10 rnds, they all seem to blow right by the “starter” division and go to Limited.

 

I don’t really care one way or the other what they do to Prod.  I only shoot it now and then (i.e. Lo-Cap Nats).  It’s a fun division but to say its the “starter” division, my anecdotal experience at club matches with noobs is they ain’t starting in Prod.  

 

 

But I mean, that's kinda the point. I think we need to stop thinking of production as a division for starters and just think of it as a locap division. A new shooter can come in shooting open, it's not going to matter as they need to shoot a few times to figure out if they like the sport and want to commit the money to gear.

 

So tweaking production doesn't really accomplish anything unless you have fond memories of shooting production. It's dying out but frankly so is limited so are we going to have a conversation about saying limited next year?

[2MoreChains]

5 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

But I mean, that's kinda the point. I think we need to stop thinking of production as a division for starters and just think of it as a locap division. A new shooter can come in shooting open, it's not going to matter as they need to shoot a few times to figure out if they like the sport and want to commit the money to gear.

 

So tweaking production doesn't really accomplish anything unless you have fond memories of shooting production. It's dying out but frankly so is limited so are we going to have a conversation about saying limited next year?

 

LOL, I doubt it (about Limited), but for sure we’ll continue to debate the merits/lack-of with Ltd minor… 

 

But think of it this way:  We have Prod, SS, L10, and Revo as the four locap divisions. CO, Ltd, Open, and PCC as the four hicap divisions.  Quite a few people regularly suggest that L10 should be combined into SS or Prod divisions because the differences in equipment is negligible these days, plus we have those pesky 10-rnd only states that need to be accommodated (rule 3.3.1 notwithstanding).  

 

If Prod were to get bumped to 15 rnds… we would then have a “betweener” division that is fairly distinct from the locap AND hicap divisions.  But I agree, we won’t see a wholesale rush of noobs joining USPSA just so they can shoot 15 rnds before they do a standing reload (evil grin), but I suspect some _______ (fill in the blank division) shooters may tend to shoot Prod more just because it would be a different division than the classic 10-rnd Prod game.  

[Intheshaw1]

2 minutes ago, 2MoreChains said:

 

LOL, I doubt it (about Limited), but for sure we’ll continue to debate the merits/lack-of with Ltd minor… 

 

But think of it this way:  We have Prod, SS, L10, and Revo as the four locap divisions. CO, Ltd, Open, and PCC as the four hicap divisions.  Quite a few people regularly suggest that L10 should be combined into SS or Prod divisions because the differences in equipment is negligible these days, plus we have those pesky 10-rnd only states that need to be accommodated (rule 3.3.1 notwithstanding).  

 

If Prod were to get bumped to 15 rnds… we would then have a “betweener” division that is fairly distinct from the locap AND hicap divisions.  But I agree, we won’t see a wholesale rush of noobs joining USPSA just so they can shoot 15 rnds before they do a standing reload (evil grin), but I suspect some _______ (fill in the blank division) shooters may tend to shoot Prod more just because it would be a different division than the classic 10-rnd Prod game.  

I don't think limited will die next year, but it's definitely declining and maybe 5 years behind production? I'm of the opinion, right or wrong, that limited is hanging on because of all the money spent on 2011s and once those people burnout their guns or sell them there won't be many people left in limited. 

 

But again, it's just seems like people are moving between divisions and not so much pulling new shooters. Locally PC and CO make up most of the shooters with a handful in open and limited but that's falling off. The serious limited shooters I know have since dumped their 2011s for CZ in CO. Small sample but in looking at the other numbers posted here, it doesn't seem to be an outlier.

[vluc]

Never saw production as the starter division.  Always guided newbies to Limited minor since they showed up with few magazines and all high caps.

 

CO & PCC are dominating, and those pools are really deep.  BOD should reach out and solicit input on what to do regarding L:imited and Production.  IDK, I'm shooting production this weekend after doing CO the last few seasons (and almost 20 years of Prod before that.)  When the pool is so deep and broad that the best day you ever have still puts you at the bottom of the squad/pack, you have to rethink why you are shooting what you are shooting.

[Jeff226]

On 9/21/2021 at 10:02 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

 

My 19 round CZ mags are $35 each.  140 extensions are $30 - $40.  No extra springs needed, just shave the follower legs.

 

Glock 17 rounders are $25 - $30.  Strike Industries extension are $18 including a new longer spring.

 

Anyone who pays a hundo for CO mags does it because they want to.

 

There is no need to buy aftermarket base pads or new springs just to fill OEM magazines all the way.  Where do you come up with this stuff?

I agree, you can get 140mm extensions for the most popular CO/Limited minor guns that aren't 2011s for $30 ish.  Two extensions are cheaper than 3 more magazine and additional pouches....but if we were being honest...the cost of these things don't even matter. 

 

On 9/21/2021 at 10:52 AM, Racinready300ex said:

 

I assume that's the goal. We're always talking about "saving" a division. And that's the only way to do it.

 

Really, Prod 140 might put a hurt on CO. It basically would take the most unreliable part of your CO rig out of the equation. This is probably the best part of this proposal. 

 

 

 

 

 

Nobody is asking for 15 rd production or 140 production.  They want limited minor.  Anything less than a separate limited minor division is just delaying the inevitable...all while frustrating people in the mean time.   

 

 

[SGT_Schultz]

46 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Nobody is asking for 15 rd production or 140 production.  They want limited minor.

 

 

Nobody is asking for limited minor.  "They" means just you

 

Limited minor already exists.  Quit whining and go shoot it.

[motosapiens]

51 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

 

Nobody is asking for 15 rd production or 140 production.  They want limited minor.  Anything less than a separate limited minor division is just delaying the inevitable...all while frustrating people in the mean time.   

 

 

nobody wants limited minor except 1 guy who incessantly won't shut up about it.

 

OTOH, 15 rd production would be an improvement I think. Even better would be to make CO and Prod *both* 15 rounds (in my opinion). But maybe everyone else would hate that, so whatever.

I've been dabbling in CO this year to prepare for when I get really old, and it's been fun, but I'm already starting to look forward to going back to iron sights after the first of the year.

[SGT_Schultz]

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

15 rd production would be an improvement I think. Even better would be to make CO and Prod *both* 15 rounds (in my opinion). But maybe everyone else would hate that

 

 

I wouldn't hate it

Edited September 24, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I wouldn't hate it

well, then I changed my mind. I don't want it anymore. 

[Boomstick303]

I have this discussion with a couple of people and everyone is on the same page that 15 round mag capacity would reinvigorate production. Really what does USPSA have to loose by doing this?  It would match USPSA production rules with ISPC. 

[T3P_Guy]

I know 15 is an easy round number but have you guys thought about 16 round production? I know a lot of major matches I shot this year seems to think that the go-to round count for a stage should be 32. This would add a little additional spice to stage planning on 32 round stages with the possibility of anywhere from 1-3 reloads depending on stage design and amount of risk you want to take...

[SGT_Schultz]

8 hours ago, T3P_Guy said:

I know 15 is an easy round number but have you guys thought about 16 round production? I know a lot of major matches I shot this year seems to think that the go-to round count for a stage should be 32. This would add a little additional spice to stage planning on 32 round stages with the possibility of anywhere from 1-3 reloads depending on stage design and amount of risk you want to take...

I think it's more interesting when you're one round short of 16 in unloaded start stages.

 

15 is easy because it's what IPSC allows and because it provides for a greater number of pistols usable with magazines that they ship with.

Edited September 25, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[IHAVEGAS]

12 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

Really what does USPSA have to loose by doing this?  It would match USPSA production rules with ISPC. 

 

You pretty much answered your own question  . Is USPSA still sending a boatload of cash to IPSC every year (for reasons I never understood)?

 

There is a lot more crossover between folks who shoot IDPA (10 round max) and USPSA if you are looking to keep capacity common. A nice thing about current rules for folks that participate in both sports is that when things go wrong (unplanned make up shots) you have developed a feel for where you are at with remaining rounds.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by IHAVEGAS

[motosapiens]

9 hours ago, T3P_Guy said:

I know 15 is an easy round number but have you guys thought about 16 round production? I know a lot of major matches I shot this year seems to think that the go-to round count for a stage should be 32. This would add a little additional spice to stage planning on 32 round stages with the possibility of anywhere from 1-3 reloads depending on stage design and amount of risk you want to take...

meh, they are pretty boring and stupidly designed stages if they are easily broken up into 8 or 16 round chunks. good stage designers provide alot more options. And if you have more than 6' or so of movement, a reload costs you nothing (assuming you practice).

[SGT_Schultz]

5 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

There is a lot more crossover between folks who shoot IDPA (10 round max) and USPSA if you are looking to keep capacity common.

 

This makes zero sense. 

 

IDPA shooters who crossover can stick five more rounds in their 15 - 18 round magazines.

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

This makes zero sense. 

 

IDPA shooters who crossover can stick five more rounds in their 15 - 18 round magazines.

 

If you consider only the first line without the context ("A nice thing about current rules for folks that participate in both sports is that when things go wrong (unplanned make up shots) you have developed a feel for where you are at with remaining rounds."), and you haven't shot 10 round enough to develop the round counter in your subconscious, and your intuition doesn't tell you that changing from match to match adds difficulty, then I can see why it would not make sense to you. 

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by IHAVEGAS

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If you consider only the first line without the context ("A nice thing about current rules for folks that participate in both sports is that when things go wrong (unplanned make up shots) you have developed a feel for where you are at with remaining rounds."), and you haven't shot 10 round enough to develop the round counter in your subconscious, and your intuition doesn't tell you that changing from match to match adds difficulty, then I can see why it would not make sense to you. 

 

 

Catering to the .001% of IDPA shooters who cross over to USPSA is not a winning move.

 

 

[happygunner77]

LOL. This thread is still going? Wasting time advocating for 15 rounds instead of dryfiring with mag changes. I'm glad the board doesn't listen to whiners. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by happygunner77

[Jim Watson]

If I were the Division Czar, I would give you full capacity Production magazines and take back all those ludicrous alterations, making it a Stock division.  No changes but sights, springs, and polish.  

[IHAVEGAS]

19 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Catering to the .001% of IDPA shooters who cross over to USPSA is not a winning move.

 

.001%    

 

400 shooters at the IDPA nationals over the last couple days, some big name USPSA folks like TGO included, look at any IDPA area match of shooters you know and you will see about 25% (rough guess based upon my location) that also shoot USPSA.  

 

I don't think I even know anyone who has shot an IPSC match or intends to, I'm sure that nearer the Canadian border you would find a good percentage of IPSC/USPSA folks, but since Canada is a 10 round max country I don't see how making those folks switch back and forth on mag capacity from match to match would be in anyones best interest. 

[happygunner77]

2 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

If I were the Division Czar, I would give you full capacity Production magazines and take back all those ludicrous alterations, making it a Stock division.  No changes but sights, springs, and polish.  

 

Sounds like limited minor division. 

[Jim Watson]

The difference being near stock condition guns.  Maybe even a minimum trigger pull like IPSC.  

[IHAVEGAS]

41 minutes ago, happygunner77 said:

 

Sounds like limited minor division. 

 

Which might be fun for some of the folks that want all of the orthopedic aids except a dot. Given that scoring is done by computer (i.e. round numbers are not necessary - a Charlie can be 3.2 points instead of 3 for example) it should not be difficult to tweak things enough to make limited minor competitive. 

[shred]

Easier to dump the dot requirement for CO.  It's long since outlived any usefulness it ever had.

 

[SGT_Schultz]

5 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

.001%    

 

400 shooters at the IDPA nationals over the last couple days, some big name USPSA folks like TGO included, look at any IDPA area match of shooters you know and you will see about 25% (rough guess based upon my location) that also shoot USPSA.  

 

I don't think I even know anyone who has shot an IPSC match or intends to, I'm sure that nearer the Canadian border you would find a good percentage of IPSC/USPSA folks, but since Canada is a 10 round max country I don't see how making those folks switch back and forth on mag capacity from match to match would be in anyones best interest. 

 

I don't care about IDPA or Canada.  I care about a ruleset that improves the attendance to moribund divisions.