I wish Production wasn't dying

[TaterHead]

9 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I don't care about IDPA or Canada.  I care about a ruleset that improves the attendance to moribund divisions.

I don’t care about moribund divisions either.

[Racinready300ex]

On 9/24/2021 at 6:22 PM, Jeff226 said:

I agree, you can get 140mm extensions for the most popular CO/Limited minor guns that aren't 2011s for $30 ish.  Two extensions are cheaper than 3 more magazine and additional pouches....but if we were being honest...the cost of these things don't even matter. 

 

 

Nobody is asking for 15 rd production or 140 production.  They want limited minor.  Anything less than a separate limited minor division is just delaying the inevitable...all while frustrating people in the mean time.   

 

 

 

Prod 140, limited minor what ever we call it doesn't matter the division would basically be the same. And the end result is still just shuffling shooters around to different divisions. People who really want to play the game will those that don't wont. I don't but the idea that we're growing the sport by constantly adding and changing divisions. 

 

Lack of rule stability hurts the sport IMO. Some of our new equipment rules are a joke and I've lost a lot of respect for the sport because of it. 

[RJH]

I need to shoot one more classifier in carry-ops to get classified, so I will probably shoot the whole match in carry-ops, but then I'm going back to single stack and I don't care if anybody else shoots it or not. I don't think any rules need changed, I'm just going to shoot what I like and not care what everybody else does

[IHAVEGAS]

42 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Lack of rule stability hurts the sport IMO.

 

+1.

I think that once it has been shown that a rule can be interpreted different ways by rational people (see 1,000 rule discussion threads here for example), lack of aggressively clarifying the rules is not great for the sport either. Figure it out - make it clear - leave it alone. 

[Racinready300ex]

3 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

 

 If it was fully limited minor there would be no changes left to make,

 

 

Trust me no matter what we change there will be some guy on here with a better idea and he'll make lots of threads and posts about it. Limited minor is so last month, the new fad is rimfire and SC with 13 division needs 2 more apparently. 

 

I like your solution though, it's basically 5-6 divisions for 2011's plus revo and PCC. Lots of places to play with my 2011's I guess. Variety is over rated anyway. 

 

 

[whan]

On 9/26/2021 at 2:26 PM, shred said:

Easier to dump the dot requirement for CO.  It's long since outlived any usefulness it ever had.

 

  

Agreed - easiest solution IMO is to dump the optics requirement in CO, and merge all of L10, SS and Prod into Locap, with 10 round minor / 8 round major rules. This:

• Gives new shooters a good place to start in either CO or locap
• Creates more heat in locap - as a SS minor shooter, I already compare myself against combined prod+SS
• Gives 9mm 2011s and CZ TSOs somewhere to play competitively, I guess

Downsides are:

• Existing production shooters get put into a slight equipment disadvantage over any purpose built 2011s that enter. But hell, with the way production already is, with a 59oz weight limit and lots of people shooting tuned CZ Shadow 2s or X5 Legions, not sure if this is going to be as big a deal. Most production guns not that hard to find a magwell to plop on, and Shadow 2s can be run condition 1 anyways
• L-10 people have to get used to shooting 8 rounds. But since I'm not sure if anyone shoots L-10 as a primary division, not sure if anyone will care

 

Or just keep everything the way it is - I'm ok with some divisions being smaller than others if they roughly represent reasonable different classes of guns, it's just how it is

Edited October 1, 2021 by whan

[BadShot]

If you were to add 8 shot minor revos and allow them to use a dot to even things up I think you have something here

[shred]

It would get things closer to the "All pistols compete together equally" principle that was there at the founding, and not the watered-down version that's there now.

 

[Sinister4]

Biggest reason for me (as a newer shooter in this sport) to go from production to limited (after 2 matches) was 3 things, 1) the 10 round mags 2) not really a "production gun" more like modded factory specials  3) very few people in production at our local matches,  I do not shoot dot sights so no CO for me 

[robchavous]

I think Prod/CO need to move back to having a more reasonable weight limit.  Then maybe consider making both of them 15 round divisions.  

[waktasz]

Why would the board consider, or the members want, to change the most popular division at this point? 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, robchavous said:

I think Prod/CO need to move back to having a more reasonable weight limit.  Then maybe consider making both of them 15 round divisions.  

 

I think that ship has sailed. Rolling back the rules is much more of a problem than loosening restrictions. 

[robchavous]

26 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think that ship has sailed. Rolling back the rules is much more of a problem than loosening restrictions. 

Then it'll just be a continued slow erosion of division lines.  

[waktasz]

Making Production 15 rounds makes it way closer to Limited than it is now. 

[robchavous]

2 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Making Production 15 rounds makes it way closer to Limited than it is now. 

Which is why some of the other changes should be addressed before doing that.  I agree if you just plop down Prod 15 on the current ruleset it's very close to just being Lim minor.

[twodownzero]

2 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Making Production 15 rounds makes it way closer to Limited than it is now. 

 

Making Production 15 rounds in a game set up in 8 round arrays is a waste of time and would change basically nothing other than giving Production shooters more makeup shot potential.

 

The most meaningful change that could be made to Production is to go back to a reasonable weight limit.  There was a time, maybe 10 years ago, when people were taking weight out of their guns, even major guns, thinking it made them faster.  It seems that today's Production guns prove that weight is generally desirable and even the fastest shooters are probably faster with heavier guns if the weight is in the right place.  If we want plastic guns to be competitive outside of the hands of the supersquad shooters, we need to have weight limits that make them competitive.  A few ounces probably doesn't matter, but doubling the weight of the gun certainly does.

[waktasz]

Plastic guns are plenty competitive, they just aren't popular. People don't like driving a toyota when they can drive a ferarri for only double the price.

[Racinready300ex]

55 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

Making Production 15 rounds in a game set up in 8 round arrays is a waste of time and would change basically nothing other than giving Production shooters more makeup shot potential.

 

 

 

Maybe it's regional, but I don't really see many just straight 8 round arrays. 

[robchavous]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Maybe it's regional, but I don't really see many just straight 8 round arrays. 

 

It is.  Some clubs just aren't super creative when designing stages.  Rulebook says you can make someone shoot 8 from a position so that's what's gonna happen.

[IHAVEGAS]

55 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

Making Production 15 rounds in a game set up in 8 round arrays is a waste of time and would change basically nothing other than giving Production shooters more makeup shot potential.

 

Have you ever shot in any of the low capacity divisions? 10 - 15 is a huge change, agree that a person can design a stage where it would not be but typically I don't see many of those. I typically shoot P10 and a good friend I often squad with and do walk throughs before the matches with shoots SS8, it is interesting how only two rounds difference makes a big difference in stage planning and in level of risk when we both favor the same plan.  

[Sinister4]

Agreed  going from 10 to 17 or 22 is amazing difference, and so far I really like limited a lot, even shooting minor, just shoot alphas. (lol)   Most of the guys I shoot with are limited, open or CO  so we now all kind of view the stage the same, before at 10 rounds I was odd man out in planning and walk throughs.  

[vluc]

1 hour ago, Sinister4 said:

Most of the guys I shoot with are limited, open or CO  so we now all kind of view the stage the same, before at 10 rounds I was odd man out in planning and walk throughs.  

 

I'm heading back to production with that as one of the reasons, planning and walkthrough are different, rather than just copying what the others do. I last shot production on a regular basis back in 2016.  From 2000 to 2016 it was exclusively production while the people I shot with were open and limited, some SS (now open, limited, CO and PCC).

 

Did CO from 2017 until now, really liked when it was 10 rounds, then (IMNSHO) it went off the rails with 140.  I found I was becoming a sloppier shooter as I was always counting on having all those extra rounds - some spray and pray developed and I found I was just not having fun with CO. 

 

Going back to irons is an adjustment with the eyes being less at 67 yo, but while I was not as sharp, I had more fun than I had had in years.  YMMV.

[twodownzero]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Have you ever shot in any of the low capacity divisions? 10 - 15 is a huge change, agree that a person can design a stage where it would not be but typically I don't see many of those. I typically shoot P10 and a good friend I often squad with and do walk throughs before the matches with shoots SS8, it is interesting how only two rounds difference makes a big difference in stage planning and in level of risk when we both favor the same plan.  

If you look at my classification history, I shoot Single Stack and Production almost exclusively.  10 is an advantage sometimes (which I occasionally enjoy taking advantage of in SS minor).  12, 14, or 15 is an advantage basically never.

 

In Limited, the advantage is generally having at least 16 rounds, preferably more like 20, so that you can shoot half or more than half of the stage, pick a spot to hit your reload, and finish a 32 round field course with a single reload.  Having 15 in the magazine (even if 15+1) means you go shot for shot on the first two arrays, perform a slide lock reload, and still can't finish the stage (and so you have to do a second reload anyway).  That is pointless.  There may be some shorter courses where that helps, but if my feet are moving in a low cap division, I'm reloading anyway.  Sure, the super fast guys can now finish a 12 round course without reloading; great.  12 round stages aren't deciding matches in Production.

 

I enjoy the 10 round magazines requiring me to think about reloads and making that part of my plan.  I might even have considered welfare open if they'd kept it like Production to 10 round magazines instead.

[motosapiens]

17 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

If you look at my classification history, I shoot Single Stack and Production almost exclusively.  10 is an advantage sometimes (which I occasionally enjoy taking advantage of in SS minor).  12, 14, or 15 is an advantage basically never.

 

your stages must look very different from ours. 15 rounds would be a significant advantage over 10 in our matches on the vast majority of stages. but we have good and creative stage designers around here.

 

fwiw, I mostly shoot Limited, CO and SS major now. In limited and CO it is actually fairly unusual for me to plan a reload right at 16 rounds. Most of our stages break down better at 12 or 14 or 18 or 20 rounds to the reload.

Edited October 4, 2021 by motosapiens

[Racinready300ex]

27 minutes ago, vluc said:

 

I found I was becoming a sloppier shooter as I was always counting on having all those extra rounds - some spray and pray developed and I found I was just not having fun with CO. 

 

Did you find going spray and pray was helping you? I typically find if I'm shooting sloppy and a bunch of make up shots in CO I end up off the pace. 

 

Just because you have bullets doesn't mean you should use them all.